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benefits of a bigger sump

Discussion in 'Bay Tech Clinic' started by Ian61, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Ian61

    Ian61 New Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    ACT
    Hi, I have seen an advertisement for an Aluminium Deep Sump that will fit my 1976 T2 Bay 2000cc. It says the additional oil (the sump apparently holds two litres) will reduce engine heating. It makes sense (but so do UFOs), so I was wondering if anyone could confirm the benefits and how much extra oil it provides compared to the original sump. I want to drive across the Nullarbor in December so overheating is a worry... Is this $250 well spent?

    The link to
    the advertisement is https://www.justkampers.com.au/alum...1971-1979-t25-2000cc-aircooled-1979-1983.html
     
  2. KahunaKombi

    KahunaKombi Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    18,364
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Qld
    Good question :confused: and I've no idea as to effectiveness or additional capacity :rolleyes: nor how they actually fit to create an unleakable seal up against the engine case :eek: ...... ok so a quick google and seems deep sump is just a cavity which is sealed and holds the oil (stops leakage) and the sump attaches to the sumpon the motor by original sump plate mounting then extension snorkel attached to pickup then filter attached with provided hex bolts (if all that makes sense o_O)

    Alternate supplier - http://rodpenroseracing.com.au/deep-sumps/1871-scat-15-quart-deep-sump-kit-fits-type-4.html :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  3. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,540
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    It only takes longer to heat up the oil.
    If you have a heating problem - you will still have a heating problem.
    In some sense it can make things worse as you have more hot oil.

    I am dubious of some sumps as the castings can be rubbish.
    I have seen many that are still full of sand.

    Setting your engine up properly should be sufficient.
    They used air cooled in the Afrika Corps - crossing the Nullabor shouldnt be worse.

    If anything - look up adding an additional oil cooler.
    A lot easier to do this on a Type 4 than a Type 1

    That will make a difference to temp.

    But find out things first - as making oil too cold can be a problem as well
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  4. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,540
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    Here - this is a better way in my opinion

    https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Type-4-Oil-Filter-Sandwich-Adapter-9247-p/00-9247-0.htm

    Type 4 Oil Filter Sandwich Adapter, 9247 mounts between your stock filter and filter mount, providing ports so you can route your oil to and from an external oil cooler, to keep oil temperatures under control on hard working Type 4 VW Engines. Inlet and outlet are 3/8 NPT.

    Then pipe if off to a coil with an electric fan.

    You will get addition oil in the pipes and you can flick a switch to turn the fan on and off as required.
     
  5. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,223
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I had overheating issues. I wanted to try a deep sump prior to an external oil cooler.
    So fitted a 2ltr Empi brand sump. Really good bit of kit.
    Did sweet stuff all for cooling. I personally think, don't bother. Just fit an external oil cooler with an inline thermo fan which switches the fan on over 80degree oil only. Far more expensive, and more fittings to blow off out back, but its the only thing that seems to work.

    I have researched and contacted people that have played with fuel mixtures, deep sumps, different size cooling fan pulleys etc. Nothing really makes a great difference.
     
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  6. Ian61

    Ian61 New Member

    Messages:
    24
    Location:
    ACT
    Thank you all for your advice. I don't really have the budget to go the full external oil cooler route (not now anyway...). The engine has been fully rebuilt and I had it checked by a specialist here in Canberra ('twas rebuilt in Syd through my general mechanic.). Assuming all is well, I will just make sure it is set up correctly before we set out and take it easy. As I cross the Nullabor I will remember El Alemain (which didn't end well for the Afrika Corps!) and watch out for UFOs. Again, thank you all for your help.
     
  7. paul77

    paul77 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    923
    Location:
    Brisbane
  8. Uke Baby

    Uke Baby Active Member

    Messages:
    108
    Location:
    Illawong Sydney Australia
    Barry likes this.
  9. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    601
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    They aren't useful and hang low under your engine
    If you've got a lowered bus you'll loose the sump on speed humps
     
  10. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,540
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    Contrary to what a lot of guys will tell you, deep sumps do not offer additional cooling, their purpose is for a steady supply of oil for the pump to supply to the bearings. If the pump starts sucking air the bearings do not last long

    I like a lot of what John Conolly has to say.

    This is why Stan Pobjoy developed his smaller "anti surge" sump.
    Works just as good as the others without the hassle of the lump hanging off your motor

    upload_2018-7-11_17-43-53.png
     
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  11. Alpal

    Alpal Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,289
    Location:
    Melbourne Bend of Islands
    A standard motor should function well with standard cooling, IF its all OK. Sludged up oil cooler is probably a typical problem. If something is modified or use is extreme (competition) then may need extra help.
    A temp gauge is handy to let you know if temp is going up and you can regulate your driving to help.
     
  12. Mordred

    Mordred Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,663
    Location:
    Penna, Hobart
    I have copied this from another thread about cooling as I think it is relevant to this discussion :

    I notice you have the deep sump fitted too. Does it make any difference? Looking at the fact you have fitted the extra cooler I reckon not enough. I suspect you are treating the symptoms, not the cause. Took me a long while to grasp the problem myself, but think about it. Most of the heat going in to the oil has to be coming from the head and the relatively small amount of oil travelling through the rocker gear and back to the sump. That, and the oil splashing on the bottom of the pistons. The bottom end isn't going to produce much heat at all.

    Based on that, why is the oil is getting that hot with most of the air cooling centred around the head and the cylinder barrels? Conversely, cooling that oil is not removing much heat from the head, the air is. So, the extra heat shown in the oil must be from abnormal combustion or lack of air cooling, not a lack of oil cooling (if the oil cooler is not blocked internally from an oil point of view or the fins from an air point of view and has the flaps in the proper position)

    Not saying there isn't other factors in play but I think you have to look at the whole picture to fix it properly. In standard form these engines were designed to work in the hot and cold with out modification to the cooling system. If you are having over heating issues there must be something that has changed.


    Cheers

    Adrian
     
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  13. Dapom

    Dapom Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    632
    Location:
    Brisbane
    @Resnort fitted an external oil cooler to his 2000 aircooled T3 and found he needed a thermostat in the line as it was running too cool. You can get sandwich plates with thermostat built in :)
     
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  14. Chidori

    Chidori Active Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    Fitzroy, VIC
    Do you actually have an overheating problem, or you are just hoping to avoid one?
    If your engine is overheating, usually there is something wrong. If your engine overheats and it was recently rebuilt, try checking your air/fuel mixture and also check timing. I assume the stock oil cooler was flushed/cleaned when engine was out?
    Make sure all your tinware is in place, fan flaps are functioning or at least in the correct position.

    If you want some good background info on overheating, check out my thread... we have been through every type of scenario on there pretty much.
    Oil cooler ended up being the problem.

    Good luck! http://forums.kombiclub.com/threads/overheating-issue-i-fix-one-problem-and-another-emerges.43026/
     
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  15. Alpal

    Alpal Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,289
    Location:
    Melbourne Bend of Islands
    Treat the cause. Not the symptom?
     
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  16. Dapom

    Dapom Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    632
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I’m going to fit an oil cooler to my bus at some point soonish. Temp gauge will be fitted first and then oil cooler. At the moment I don’t think my bus is running hot but am planning on fitting the oil cooler with thermostat for a bit of peace of mind when driving during qld summer.
     
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  17. PICT

    PICT Member

    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    Perth
    I've been recomended a bigger sump by a vw garage before, along with a few other things, I won't be going there again, I couldn't be assed talking through the benifits or lack of, so just nodded and smiled and left.

    I would only fit an external thermostatically controlled oil cooler even though I can drive easily in 40c heats withough any problems, but I know one day I will fit one
     
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  18. Chidori

    Chidori Active Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    Fitzroy, VIC
    When my engine was old and rubbish I couldn't drive in 20c weather without overheating.
    Mechanics suggested external oil coolers, bigger sumps, etc, etc.

    Once the engine was sorted, oil cooler cleaned, tuned right - I can drive in 40c weather no problems, no overheating.
    In my opinion if your engine is overheating then something is wrong... spend the money on fixing the problem rather than spending the money on additional accessories to mask the original problem.
     
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  19. 1500king

    1500king Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,532
    Location:
    Adelaide, SA
    No benefit.... focus on getting your oil clearances right.
     
  20. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,223
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Given up. Fitting an external oil cooler in October. :mad:
     

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