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Bosch 009 mechanical advance distributors.

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by Schmoburger, May 11, 2007.

  1. Schmoburger

    Schmoburger Active Member

    Messages:
    4,381
    Location:
    Nowra/Jervis Bay area, NSW.
    Seeing as tho I just replaced my German centrifugal-advance only 009 dizzy with a stock 005 SVDA (single-vacuum dual advance... ie vacuum and centrifugal advance), I figure I might as well take the time to give a meaningful comparison.

    I have been going to replace the late German 009 in BC for ages, and seeing as tho George had the required 005 to put in its place I figure what better time to do the swap than the present! I took the distributors out of George and BC yesterday and found the 005 to be rather worn by comparison... all the same I cleaned it up, replaced the points with fresh ones for good measure, and put the unit into BC and see if it made any difference to the engines characteristics.

    To put it simply, the difference was extraordinary... and very very positive!

    Where before, BC would stumble from a standstill, she now moves effortlessly on take off and smoother than a baby's butt... despite the 005 being rather worn out.

    There is no longer a huge flat spot if the timing is even half a degree retarded or if the engine is cold.

    SIgnificant application of throttle at medium to high revs also instantly lost it's characteristic violent 009 jerkiness... and light throttle applications at speed became far more productive.

    And best of all, I now no longer have to put the gas pedal through the floor to gather momentum... I reached 90k's easily without any need for heavy throttle, and also can now sit on 90k's comfortably with the pedal barely depressed and hardly having to move it.

    So in short, if you have a 009 in your bus, even if you think it seems adequate, the best thing you can do is ditch it and get a stock Bosch 005 or similar, or the new replacement made I believe by Bremi...unless you have a reason to keep the 009 there that is (running aftermarket carbs lacking a vaccuum takeoff for instance). I thought mine was adequate too until I drove with vacuum advance! :D

    SO anyway, there is a nice unbiased and objective pro-vacuum advance spiel to chew on. :)

    ANyway...I have a 014 to dismantle!

    Cheers!
     
  2. ttmck

    ttmck Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,733
    Location:
    Hallett Cove STH AUS
    thats why im a fan of them
    that vac advance is there to advance the timing under light throttle the fuel then ignites earlier placing the actual explosive force at the right moment in relation to the piston position
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2007
  3. Volksaddict

    Volksaddict Member

    Messages:
    319
    Location:
    Sawtell mid northcoast NSW
    Great advice ....make this post a sticky!!!!
     
  4. GypsyWannabe

    GypsyWannabe Active Member

    Messages:
    3,032
    Location:
    Quakers Hill, Sydney
    Hey Schmo! Can you post a pic so I know what the two distributors look like and work out if I actually understand what you are talking about?! :confused:

    Sounds good to me, though!

    Baz
     
  5. Aging Surfie

    Aging Surfie New Member

    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Waikiki Western Australia
    I did the same thing to my bus with exactly the same results.

    Deano
     
  6. Schmoburger

    Schmoburger Active Member

    Messages:
    4,381
    Location:
    Nowra/Jervis Bay area, NSW.
    Yep...best thing you can do for any Kombi that has a dodgy 009.

    People end up replacing worn SVDA's with 009's because being a simpler mechanism without the vacuum advance gear, they are cheaper than a replacement SVDA... and most people probably arent aware that most worn dizzy's can be readily rebuilt... Tom himself does some in his spare time. :cool:

    It really is false economy tho buying the 009, as to get the power you want, you need to basically flatten your foot to the floor when taking off. this means you are dumping huge ammounts of fuel into the cylinders to pick up revs, but the spark advance is unable to keep up and hence power is lost as the explosion in each cylinder is incomplete at the commencement of the exhaust stroke. this is where the flat spot comes from.

    Once the engine picks up speed the advance is able to catch up as the advance weights swing out to the correct ammount of advance and it runs as it should, however by this time fuel has been wasted and power sacrificed where it is needed.. on acceleration.

    009's work fairly well on lighter cars like beetles, however on Kombis they are absolute and utter crap.

    Unfortunately there are many many whizzbanghowyagoinyoweeeee "experts".. particularly in the states... who believe the 009 is the best thing since sliced bread and will hapily feed you a load of tripe that ya car will run heaps better with it. Under certain circumstances a 009 is appropriate, for instance on heavily modified engines, engines with aftermarket carbs that lack a vacuum takeoff, or when some electronic ignition's are fitted, however on a stock engine, they are worthless garbage. :)

    Now to Baz's question...I'll grab a pic of each for comparison tomorrow Baz, but in the meantime the easy way to identify the two is look for a vacuum can on the side of the distributer body. it is a flattish looking circular object sitting parralell with the side of the distributer and has a metal tube sticking out of it with (unless some dill has disconnected it) a rubber vacuum hose connected to it which runs to either the left or right carburetter vacuum takeoff, depending upon your engine... my 2L Kombi has it on the left, my 1800 one has it on the right. If it has this vac can, it is the dizzy that you want... If it is a 009 it will look almost identical... they even use the same points, condensor and rotor button... however it will not have the vacuum can on the side. The Bosch part number of the mechanical advance dizzy is 009... the stock vacuum advance distributer is 005.

    The vac can is usually oriented between the distributer and the crankcase breather box.

    CHeers!
     
  7. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,915
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    Doesn't this usually involve disabling the vacuum advance anyway?
     
  8. Blue76Bay

    Blue76Bay New Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Western Sydney NSW
    Timing is Everything!

    Timing is everything! Just the other day the bus was running a bit rough. Tracked it down to the Vacuum advance unit on the distributor was leaking. This caused more air to enter the left carby (I have dual carbies). I went to two VW parts suppliers in Sydney to get a new Vacuum Unit and they both told me they were no longer available. Both suggested replacing the old distibutor with a 009. I have had a 009 ditributor before in my old bus and as confirmed in this thread you have to rev the crap out of your van. A quick check on the Internet confirms everything said by "Schmoburger". I blocked the Vacuum outlet on the carby therefore just using centrifugal advance in the distributor. I thought it would run similar to a 009 but to my surprise it is pretty smooth. It ran better of course when the Vacuum advance unit was working but without the Vacuum advance unit working I still don't get any flat spots or hesitation like the 009. My distributor number ends in 205P, it is the original VW/Bosch.
     
  9. t2pickup

    t2pickup New Member

    Messages:
    240
    Location:
    Coal Valley Tas
    009 are certainly NOT ment for kombi's anyway guys. They have no retardation of timing built in for number three cylinder, and as a result, number three ends up kaputsky. That also adds to many other dramas in kombis running nicely and for long lengths of time.
    Good advice schmo, change that 009 for sure, they are the easiest to come by, but any scrounger can find a vacumn unit if they are keen enough.
    I have run them in bugs, but now run an 010 in my bug, and an 050 in the type three, now those babies rock!!!!
     
  10. ttmck

    ttmck Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,733
    Location:
    Hallett Cove STH AUS
    stuck after consultation with schmoo !
     
  11. jae

    jae New Member

    Messages:
    363
    Location:
    Ashgrove, Brisbane
    Can an electronic kit be installed into a vac advance distributor? Or does that defeat the purpose?
     
  12. ttmck

    ttmck Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,733
    Location:
    Hallett Cove STH AUS
    jae not a problem i use pertronix 15 mins to fit
     
  13. jae

    jae New Member

    Messages:
    363
    Location:
    Ashgrove, Brisbane
    Around a year ago i decided to put an electronic ignition kit into Kombi. So i went out and picked up a kit from Mick Motors, a Compu-Fire i think it was called. Only to find out that it wouldn't fit into the vac advance dissy i had.

    So long story short since the original distributor was quite worn and in pieces from me trying to fumble this electronic kit in, i ended up buying a 009 and putting the kit into that (Bare in mind this is before i discovered the knowledge bank that is KC).

    Anyway (and i'm not trying to start a debate here) i've had no trouble with my 009 with electronic kit. I'd say performance is the same if not a little better than when i was running the stock vac advance.

    But after reading all your posts i'm wondering if it would be worth getting the old diz reconditioned and finding an electronic kit for that. Any idea what sort of costs i might be looking at?
     
  14. GypsyWannabe

    GypsyWannabe Active Member

    Messages:
    3,032
    Location:
    Quakers Hill, Sydney
    OK. 005 - vacuum can. 009 no can. Got it (I think)! Why don't they just print numbers on them? :confused:

    When I first adjusted the tim!ing and grabbed the top of the distributor and got soundly zapped (!), I didn't notice anything that looked like a can. Anyway, nows I knows what to looks for. :)

    Cheers,

    Baz
     
  15. Jehd

    Jehd New Member

    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    Brisbane West Side
  16. GypsyWannabe

    GypsyWannabe Active Member

    Messages:
    3,032
    Location:
    Quakers Hill, Sydney
    Thanks. I got the 2nd one, with the thing that looks a bit like a mushroom on it's side, so I guess I haven't got a Bosch 009.

    Hmmm... are the points the same? Just wondering, cos Janie's still backfiring when cold and I was sure I got the timing right. I'll check the points again on the weekend in case they're burning out and then reset the timing.

    Baz
     
  17. Schmoburger

    Schmoburger Active Member

    Messages:
    4,381
    Location:
    Nowra/Jervis Bay area, NSW.
    YEp... points are the same... the dizzy's are almost identical axcept for the vaccum gear on one. in fact as a point of interest I believe the same points are also used in the Bosch distributors on the Holden 202ci red and blue straight-6's.

    They do have the number printed on them, but it cant bee seen with the dizzy in place. :eek:

    You say you got zapped the first time you grabbed the dizzy? this may indicate the source of your backfiring... definitely sounds like ignition, so I am thinking bad leads may be to blame or maybe a cracked dizzy cap. either problem will cause all sorts of havoc with the ignition and hence give you stumbles, backfires etc etc...

    Jehd.... thanks for sourcing those pics. :cool:

    Cheers all!
     
  18. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,915
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    From memory I think they are Bosch GB534 and GB534V.
    The original 009 had GB6 two piece points. (Same as the Resolit)
     
  19. ModelJets

    ModelJets Active Member

    Messages:
    1,264
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Our beetle with a 009 dizzy was backfiring and it was the rotor button. The mechanic showed us the grey flash mark inside the shaft tunnel of the rotor.
     
  20. Schmoburger

    Schmoburger Active Member

    Messages:
    4,381
    Location:
    Nowra/Jervis Bay area, NSW.
    Yep, 534 is what they are for the vac advance and the late 009..:)
     

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