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Bosch 009 mechanical advance distributors.

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by Schmoburger, May 11, 2007.

  1. StevieVW

    StevieVW Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,473
    Location:
    Somerset, Tasmania
    That being the case, it's one less reason for me to ditch the points in favour of electronic ignition.
     
  2. ttmck

    ttmck Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,733
    Location:
    Hallett Cove STH AUS
    stevie i have fitted heeps of pertronix units , its prob easier to have the distributor out and then you can remove the base plate check the advance springs and clean and lube the base plate to do this it would take a good 1/2 hour , but you can just remove the points and fit the pick up and sleeve set the air gap and bobs your uncle 10 mins work

    a few drops of oil down the shaft set your timing never set it again !!
     
  3. T1 Terry

    T1 Terry Active Member

    Messages:
    1,309
    Location:
    Lake Illawarra NSW
    I think I will be sticking with the points too, I believe the retard on No. 3 cyl is very important for extended engine life and a set of points and a condensor are easy to carry as spares and only a few minutes to change. They don't suddenly stop working, lots of warning and a quick set by eye will at least get you going again. If the electronic unit dies and you aren't carrying a set of points and condensor you aren't going anywhere.

    T1 Terry
     
  4. ttmck

    ttmck Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,733
    Location:
    Hallett Cove STH AUS
    Whats with the retard on number 3 via the distributor never ever heard of this and its impossible to create unless some one can enlighten me on this my 28 ys as a trademan and all i learnt and have teached is out the window the only thing is valve overlap which is ground into the main camshaft which causes the exhaust valve to remain open for longer when the inlet valve is opening as for the distributor pls explain !!! most interested

    i think its a load of frogs u knw what !!!
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  5. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,015
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    I know of this on a type 1 engine but do not know about a type 4. You can check it by timing on no 1 cylinder and the check the timing on no 3 and it will be retarded by about 3 degrees. Any air cooled VW mechanic knows about this.
     
  6. ttmck

    ttmck Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,733
    Location:
    Hallett Cove STH AUS
    well i did not ! but im not an air cooled mechanic from 1974 just 1980

    never seen anything in the bentleys about it and i never was taught anything about this built into a distriutor at trade school and i have a distributor graph machine here at home and never ever knew anything about this so i put my hands up and i will next time put the theroy to the test before im convinced
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  7. T1 Terry

    T1 Terry Active Member

    Messages:
    1,309
    Location:
    Lake Illawarra NSW
    If you put a timing light on no.1 plug lead and set the timing, then move the pick up to no.3 lead, should be the same but it's not. The lobes on the distributor are machined off set.
    One thing I know for sure is that it is critical to put the dist drive in the correct way round. Firing order can be moved around the cap and the distributor adjusted to suit in most vehicles but not an aircooled VW. Also important too when setting the timing statically that the rotor is pointing at no. 1 plug lead, not no.3 as the timing will be wrong. I learnt about the offset timing as a smart arsed apprentice who knew everything and it wasn't critical how the dist drive went in. Picked the head of no.3 exhaust valve out of my nice new 92mm piston when it parted company half way up Mt Ousley destroying my nice new ported and polish twin port head.
    Learnt to pay a lot more attention to the words of the wise. Been in the trade for 37yrs, still learning, still listening. I think early Renaults and Peugeots had a similar set up.
    Most late model computer controlled coil on plug systems alter the timing between cyls and in high performance stuff this amount of offset is varied depending on load.

    T1 Terry
     
  8. Mordred

    Mordred Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,694
    Location:
    Penna, Hobart
    Does anyone know of anywhere local (eg Australia) where you can get a vacuum advance unit for the 005 distributor (standard type 1800 1975). Nardek hasn't got one and doesn't know of anywhere else.


    Adrian
     
  9. Rocky

    Rocky Well-Known Member

    Classic vee dub has the on their website I think.....
     
  10. nikferatu

    nikferatu Active Member

    Messages:
    1,457
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Brisbane
    I recently bought a new SVDA 005 type dizzy and the Compufire pointless (?) ignition set together from ClassicVeedub for $200. Brand of dizzy was unknown but the staff told me it was American over the phone. Service great BTW, took less than 24 hours from ordering online to delivery at my front door (Sydney to Brisbane). I also bought a new set of leads, a new bosch coil, and an interior light. All items were received in good condition as ordered.


    First of all, the Compufire set was designed to suit what I believe is the later type vacuum advance dizzy or a stock 009, not the 005 with which it was sold. I have a very worn later one which has the two-stage vacuum setup (two hoses, not one as per the stock 005, and a larger vacuum can), and I think it would fit this type.

    The first difference is that the plug hole in the side where the condenser wire enters is square on the later dizzy - on the SVDA I bought it is a circular hole. I overcame this by getting an old condenser with a round grommet, trimming off all the wires from the grommet, then passing a drill through the grommet to take the two leads coming off the cell which need to exit the dizzy and go off to the coil. The grommet that comes with the Compufire kit is square and will not fit the round hole on the side of the 005.

    The second issue is the dimensions of the cell block that sits where the old points used to be. The cell as supplied does not fit exactly where it should - it touches the center drive post of the dizzy (clearly no good at all!), and there is a spot weld on the earth strap where it connects to the circular dizzy plate which prevents the cell from sitting flat on the plate - which it is clearly required to do.

    I got around this by firstly using a flat file to file off a chamfer on the base of the cell (a bit like the waist and arm areas on a Fender Stratocaster, for those who know what that looks like), enough so it would clear the little weld and sit flat on the plate. Second, I took a circular file and filed the side of the block facing the drive so that it ended up with a little curve large enough to gain a mm or so of clearance away from the spinning cam lobes. This has to be done carefully as there is only a mm or two of metal to the cell casing before you are through it and into the white plastic component inside....


    Third, I modified the hole where you screw the cell to the plate (corresponds with the screw hole on your old points). I used a drill in a sideways motion (you could use a circular file if you have one small enough - I didn't) to slot the hole in the direction of the center axis of the dizzy, thus allowing it to be mounted further away from the center than was possible with the original dimensions of the screw hole. That is, with the drill spinning in the hole I pushed the drill sideways in the direction I wanted to extend the hole into a slot, giving a bit more adjustment as to where the cell's final location would be when installed. These modifications combined allowed the cell to be mounted so that it cleared the cam lobes as they turned.


    Fourth, the rotor needs to be reduced in height so that it still fits under the cap while accommodating the circular wheel/magnet assembly that is the other half of the Compufire kit arrangement. It goes on the spindle, sitting on the squared section of the drive, with the rotor button sitting on top. I measured the difference, then hacksawed the base of the rotor button, and finished off to the correct height with a flat file. Remember, you can file more off but you can't put back what you hacksawed off if you took off too much - and it needs to be just right as the circular plate depends on it to sit where it is supposed to be during operation... With the rotor not keeping it located it could potentially wander upwards and away from the cell - this relationship needs to be within a certain tolerance or the set will not work properly (as per the instructions)! I suggest maybe getting it right with your old worn rotor, then cutting the new one exactly right once you've figured out the exact dimensions required.


    As for performance, that is yet to be established. The motor had running issues prior to the installation, which I was hoping would go away (running rough, high consumption, no power, etc). The motor ran a bit smoother but there was no magical cure as other people have experienced. Having now given up trying to fix it myself, the bus is at Phoenix Engineering as I type so I guess I should shortly know what the actual problem is and whether I damaged the compufire set doing the above installation. I suspect not, but we'll soon see and I'll put the results up when available.


    So to answer the question, does the basic compufire kit fit the 005 SVDA - yes, but only with some minor modifications. It does not drop straight in like it does with the 009 as stated elsewhere, or as it looked like it would with the later type of vacuum dizzy with the square hole on the side and the big two-hose vacuum can.

    I hope this is useful information to someone. It would have been handy for me to know, especially when the two were sold together... One conclusion would be to just avoid trying to combine these two items if, as Tom says, the Pertronix kit will fit a 005 in ten minutes with no stuffing around. If I had my time again I would have gone down that road. When you buy a dizzy and an electronic ignition kit bundled together from a respected VW parts house you don't expect to have any hiccups - Anyone else looking at the above deal should maybe keep this in mind. This is in no way a sledge on the supplier, probably just an oversight or they were genuinely unaware that the two items are not immediately suited to each other.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  11. nikferatu

    nikferatu Active Member

    Messages:
    1,457
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Brisbane
    Just got back from Phoenix Engineering - the problem was a tight inlet valve on no.4.

    So the above setup works perfectly. Sorry this is drifting off the topic a bit but I think it's useful information - I searched for a fair while and found no mention about this situation before I bought the 005 and Compufire package deal.
     
  12. 3Amigos

    3Amigos Active Member

    Messages:
    3,094
    Location:
    THE HOUSE ON THE HILL
    ??


    has anyone experienced this???...posted 2 yrs ago....should have some results:umm: ​
     
  13. StevieVW

    StevieVW Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,473
    Location:
    Somerset, Tasmania
    If this is the case Ed would know!
     
  14. twincab75

    twincab75 New Member

    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Hobart Tas
    new vacuum adv dizzy

    I have a 009 in my 75 2ltr and had the same problems as ive been reading about here,trouble when starting ie i had to rev the hell out of it to get any go out of it.SO i did a web search and found a site called Hot spark in the us who do a vacuum advance dizzy with there electronic ignision installed for $177.00 including delivery to aus.and since i have put it in the differance is 1000% so i can recomend this.check it out.dave
     
  15. Carter

    Carter Member

    Messages:
    750
    Location:
    Mount Gravatt East, Brisbane
    how long have you had it? Sorry to say but according to a few people off of a few sites, apparently the hotspark don't last too long.. APPARENTLY is the key word.
     
  16. twincab75

    twincab75 New Member

    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Hobart Tas
    Only 3 weeks.hmm hope it lasts then:mad:
     

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