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camber

Discussion in 'Bay Tech Clinic' started by pop bus, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. pop bus

    pop bus New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    umina
    whats the best setting for toe and camber.had a few over the years some leave you with a scary feeling every corner
     
  2. 1500king

    1500king Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,532
    Location:
    Adelaide, SA
    Sounds like your wheel aligner has set it up to holden commodore spec without actually understanding a VW front end. Will get back to you withVW specs.
     
  3. pop bus

    pop bus New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    umina
    bad part of it ,had one aligned that good, to avoid a crash heaved on the wheel doing 60k and pulled off a 90 degree turn and stayed upright to a cheering mob at the bus stop.the bloke that set the alignment has retired and did not tell me his knowledge.
     
    David H likes this.
  4. David H

    David H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,556
    Location:
    newcastle
    Chidori likes this.
  5. Chidori

    Chidori Active Member

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    Fitzroy, VIC
    David H likes this.
  6. David H

    David H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,556
    Location:
    newcastle
    As you know so well;). Are you getting anywhere with yours?
    Cheers
     
    Chidori likes this.
  7. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    659
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    Ok
    depending on wheel width
    about 3mm toe in
    depends on wheel off set, 40mm ish is normal but heaps of rims out there with much smaller off sets ( toe out may be necessary with some)
    0 deg camber is good (wide wheels, a little pos for std wheels)
    caster aprox 3.5 deg
    SAI about 4 deg would be good but controlled by such things as suspension wear and bent bits. If outrageous, will stop your steering wheel from self centering.

    Rear wheel alignment plays a big part as well
    Little bit of toe in and about 1/2 deg neg camber would be good.

    Find someone who knows Big boxes like kombis.
    not all tyre(tire in Aus) places know what their doing.
    pity Andrew didn't get back to you as stated (he may have different ideas).
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  8. Chidori

    Chidori Active Member

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    Fitzroy, VIC
    Aren't all of the VW specs for wheel alignment in the bentley book?
     
  9. Chidori

    Chidori Active Member

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    Fitzroy, VIC
    Haha... not yet... he's been in hibernation!
     
  10. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,034
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    A bit of common sense there.;)
     
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  11. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    659
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    Yes they are. Now find a wheel aligner that knows where to look and can adjust a kombis angles and highlight problems with the owner when out of spec angles can't be adjusted.

    Recently I took my Holden one tonner (VZ) around the corner for a wheel alignment because I replaced the rack (oil leak) .
    They fixed the wheel off centre and toe in and charged $75 for the privilege (about 10min work).
    I asked for the print out (they've got a pretty fancy machine which is why I went there)
    A couple of the other angles where just off spec and I asked them to explain how they would affect the vehicle and what was bent or worn (these are not adjustable on my vehicle). They basically had no explanation or idea.
    I know the track rod bushes weren't perfect and the driver side ball joint had some wear which accounted for the readings. They didn't!
    Step one in any wheel alignment, CHECK FOR SUSPENSION WEAR (something that's deliberately overlooked by most alignment shops to speed up the process).

    The reason I gave round about figures in an earlier post is that Bentley gives alignment figures for standard wheels and tires (how many kombis still have these). Those camber angles and toe aren't quite right for wide tires and different offset wide rims and slammed suspensions.
     
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  12. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,034
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    Why would they be different?
     
  13. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    659
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    Camber should be zero for wide tires. The more pos / neg the greater the wear on the outside/inside of the tire.

    Toe is there to counteract the tendency for the tires to roll outward or inward (front wheel drive) while traveling in a straight line.
    The main contributor to this is scrub radius which is the patch on the tire tread that takes most of the load of the vehicle and must also distort during turns.
    (Camber can contribute to this but would have to be high, more than 3deg.)
    It is created by the intersecting lines of sai (steering axis inclination) and camber. This intersection can be below the road surface (pos), above the road surface (neg) or on the road surface (zero)
    The patch is designed to be toward the inside or outside of the tread depending on make of vehicle and a different offset in the rim (which some wide rims may have) changes the position of the scrub patch. This alters the tendency for the tires to roll outward (harder or lesser) and therefore more or less toe is needed.
    The original offset in the rim is there to load the inner wheel bearing (larger) more than the outer one.

    I've seen some lowered kombis that end up with a fair bit of neg camber on the rear wheels that should be near zero to reduce inside tire wear (specially on wide tires).

    Wheel alignment angles are designed into vehicles around the vehicle size, length, width, weight, type of suspension and designated rim and tire to increase stability and reduce tire wear. Play with the rim and tire to much and you'll need to play with the angles a little unless increased tire wear and wandering aren't a bother.
     
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  14. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,034
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    This what I cannot understand that the width would make any difference camber settings.
     
  15. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    659
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    Ok
    I've drawn up an exaggerated diagram (I've got a boring life at the mo, working on the kombi and not much else, missing Old bar and doing this on the long week end)

    P9300149.JPG

    It's exaggerated to show the problem
    section in the middle represents a standard tire
    outside section represents a wide tire.
    2 horizontal lines represent the road surface for each tire
    Now this isn't real, the tires will distort and run flat on the road.
    Notice the wide tire has to distort more and therefore more pressure on the outside with a detrimental effect to wear in that area. Remedy, reduce camber (also works for neg).
    If you extrapolate up (I know I'm a nerd) up into the hub and wheel bearings you'll notice a greater load on the outer wheel bearing (from the pressure area of the tires)
    Most wide rims decrease the off set ratio (amount front to amount back but as a ratio instead of mm) because of clearance from suspension components, and this ends up putting more pressure on the outer wheel bearings and upsetting the area of scrub radius and requiring tweaking a few things.

    This is what experienced wheel alignment techs can do. Go back to the 70's and every thing was adjustable mainly because bodies/ chassis straight off the assembly line weren't straight (pretty good these days so most angles are built in or only marginally adjustable to account for age and sag). If you can find them they can make a big difference to your ride. Unfortunately they're far and few between. Look for old farts in nursing homes with arthritic hands who drink a lot.
    Now I need some more wine.

    Cheers
     
    nils, Grantus, David H and 2 others like this.
  16. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,034
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    I would have thought that if it was good for the wide tyre, it would be good for narrow then?

    There is a knowledgeable old fart that lives near me. Ray Selby, ex Selby's Suspension. Carlton. Any old fart rev head would know of him. I'll have to talk to him.

    At Taren Point there is East Coast Suspension with a guy that was around in the 70s that I recommend. A lot of his work is Porsche Cup race cars.
     

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