Ceramic coating exhaust.

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by cbus, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,735
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    A few people have done ceramic coating on heater boxes and exhaust.
    Any costs avail for such on a type 4 motor system.
    What prep was needed. Guessing it should be fairly smooth. ie not a sandblasted profile.
    Thanks
    Col
     
  2. Andy.

    Andy. Active Member

    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I did mine years ago, type 4 engine and on my type 3, so costs would not longer be relevant. Super clean, no paint, no rust if you want the best outcome. Did not need sandblasting if it's clean and bare metal. I don't think they care if it's rough or smooth, just affects your final appearance.
    Make sure you take to them about the heater boxes, normally on header pipes they do inside and out, this would affect your heater, so they only did inside a short distance for me, and what they could on the outer tinware (inside) Remember they get baked also, so you don't want oil residue inside the heater area.

    There were a number of places to choose from when I did mine, not sure who's about these days
    This is who I used for both https://www.truelocal.com.au/business/hpc-high-performance-coatings-qld/brendale (not sure if they still exist?)
    They had an option of silver or black, black supposedly better protection, so that's what I put on both.

    I did my heads/piston crowns at the same time :)
     
  3. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,735
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Thanks.
    Any recall of cost on just boxes n exhaust as a starting point.
    I will get quotes anyway but looking at it and guessing most places will be on extended holidays at mo.
    Might do a soft bead blast then go over with progressively finer sandpapers.
    Not so worried about finish but keeping heat away from heads.
    Oil contamination seems minimal.
    Quite good nick so also catching them before they deteriorate.

    Had considered splitting them to remove the internal heat shields but that seems like work.
    Prob never be used as heaters.
    Cheers
     
  4. Grantus

    Grantus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,167
    Location:
    Southern ACT
    Hoping this is one of your newly energized own projects Col...:)
     
  5. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,735
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Ha. No Grant. Progressive sorting of the heads project. ;) Fine tuning.
    Easier to spend other peoples money.
    I made shields with turbo ceramic and aluminium sheet for mine to replace non existent heat shield.
    Should do same for heater boxes :rolleyes:

    Own projects starting tho ;)
    Slowly.
     
  6. KahunaKombi

    KahunaKombi Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    18,153
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Qld
    Got Igor's done @ HPC Coaritng @ Brendale .... they did a full external and internal on the custom pipe work & @ the time think it was about $165.00 to get the spaghetti done ..... from Andy's post they moved from where I got them done as they were over near Leichts Rd Brendale in 2005. Didn't worry about the heater boxes.

    Started of nice and shiney but did dull over time because of the heat factor.

    IM000044.JPG
     
  7. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,735
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Thanks Bert.
    As Andy suggested prices will have increased so maybe double yours for a guess at current prices starting point ??
    Recon its worth keeping all heat possible away from heads and tinware below fan intake.
     
  8. Andy.

    Andy. Active Member

    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Brisbane


    Worth giving them a ring, they were in Strathwyn St when I did the Kombi (~2001), and had moved when I did the fast back (~2012), when you search for HPC now a Sydney address comes up. From (my failing) memory the type 3, complete original system including the factory covers that strap to the heater boxes and a few joints in the heater system etc in the black coating was ~$500
    The kombi has done ~100k km since 2001 with a fair bit of dirt roads, the ceramic was applied to a good original exhaust and has held up very well.
    I definitely noticed an improvement in the heater on the kombi (I did the heater boxes), but that included ceramic coating inside the heads/piston crowns and complete new ducting at the same time. As I built to stock specs, never noticed any difference in drivability or economy (2L carbie motor).

    I went to ceramic as I never had any luck keeping paint on my exhaust's, and made the original exhaust last well.

    As for preventing heat in the heads, not sure how much it helps. The cooling system original and functioning correctly should do that and doubt ceramic exhaust helps much. When you turn off, all the heat "stored" in the heater boxes rises back into the fan housing anyway. I never actually measured engine bay temps before and after when you turn off, so don't know for sure. I did notice a drop in head temps, but not oil temps with all the work.

    Make sure you have the factory heat shield above the muffler! Original ones were a layered assembly, insulating material in-between steel. Most have long discarded this piece.....
     
  9. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,735
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Thanks Andy.
    Makes sense and is helpful.
    Not worried about heat sink after engine turned off.
    Normally for my driving and also this vehicle to have a 5-10km run down from peak hwy running temps to help valves.
    Main aim is an improvement from peak radiated heat to rocker covers/heads/ push rod tubes as we as muffler to tinware near fan.
    Based on assumption heads often having small margin to suffering from elevated temps and noting importance of having air flow thru heater boxes to reduce radiated heat.
    It seems worthwhile especially if increased longevity is also factored in.
    Presently no heat shield but agree that they are essential.
    Have ceramic/Al shields on both my kombis.
    For this kombi the aim is stock look so first considerations are an aftermarket one at $177? Or more likely get laser cut out of stainless .
    Mild steel and ceramic coat an option as is double thickness of stainless with glass matt between.

    It makes sense to start st the source in reducing heat tho hence my preference to include ceramic coating.

    Also have coatings on my own engine. ( hopefully. It was paid for).
    Pistons and heads. Should be handy running LPG.;)
     
  10. Grantus

    Grantus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,167
    Location:
    Southern ACT
    Here’s where usernames, and actual people get confusing.....

    You should thank Richard, not his bus called “Andy”. ;)

    (Some people even address Lorraine as a dog! Named Ruby. :eek:)
     
  11. Andy.

    Andy. Active Member

    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I guess we all go through evolutions of learning. I'm very happy I did all that to mine, spent a lot of time studying the old engine (oil temp/pressure, head temp, vacuum gauge, volts meter etc) and comparing to the new engine, have had 16 great years out of the engine with no major issues, but did not see much change in monitoring the engine.
    The heat shield definitely helps, knew I'd seen them some where (not sure on local vendors) http://www.busdepot.com/039119227 but yes could make your own easy enough.
    The big killer is if the tinware is not complete and sealed, EG engine bay seal and the seals around the tubes from the electric fan into the heat exchanges if you have that still.

    Just a note on ceramic in the engine, one issue I did have early on was a blown head gasket. I used a good Elring gasket kit with the multiplate head gaskets. One of these blew at ~4k km, could not figure why as spent a lot of time getting everything spot on. Replaced with a solid ring and no issues since. One theory was the ceramic retains more heat in the combustion chamber which the thin multi-plate gaskets do not like. Not sure if that's the reason, but something to consider.

    Definitely handy with LPG! Did you get the moly coating on the piston skirts also? When I re-did the head gaskets on mine, the moly coating was still like new which was nice to see.

    Let us know who you find to do the job.
     
  12. Andy.

    Andy. Active Member

    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Brisbane

    Thanks Grant :) Yes "Andy" is our bus (T2 red&white microbus deluxe).
     
  13. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,735
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Thanks Grant.
    Although I do sometimes use both versions generaly , I had thought Richards name was Andy.

    Thanks Richard :)

    The engine in question has had reconditioned heads fitted by me.
    The engine wasn't running well when purchased but pre check by mechanic claimed all around 130psi on test. Sounded sus and proved to be a flogged valve guide as well as the prev known carb tune issue.
    Another mechanic wouldn't quote on doing heads claiming engine was terminal likely needing full build.
    Tests on bottom end indicate it seems pretty sound.
    Valve accounted for symptoms.
    Shouldn't jinx myself but after a proper carb balance n tune check by local vw mech it has been running well. No strange noises.
    Wasn't really happy with attention to detail on head work done but should be ok. Lapped heads to barrels and used the single thick gasket ( 1800)
    Has been a case of rectifying lots of small issues from previous build.
    New seals around heater box pipes at tinware.
    Already had new plug leads and grommets.
    Siliconed gaps in tinware to fan housing. All tinware and new foam seal in place.
    Gromet in oil light sender at mo but ordered new correct part for this .
    Bet most people don't have one.
    $ 44 in Au.
    $18 off VW heritage.

    https://au.vwheritage.com/021119957-oil-pressure-switch-rubber-boot-1-7-2-0-type4-engine

    Reading one of Andrews posts gave me the link for lower flaps to heater boxes.

    44mm grommet is close fit for oil filler to tinware.

    Happy with the exhaust gasket kit from JK. Nuts a good fit.
    Have had a number of the usual gaskets with dimpled surface loose their guts.

    Chasing 63mm id cardboard heater tube for intake of air filter box.


    Can't recall for sure if my pistons got the skirt treatment. Think it was discussed so hopefully done.

    Next engine will certainly have all the ceramic coating options.
     
  14. Andy.

    Andy. Active Member

    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Sounds excellent, love attention to detail :) Your right on the oil pressure switch boot. Unfortnately for kombi's many parts were discarded by previous owners/mechanics years ago and subsequent owners are not aware of what was left out!

    I think one of the best kombi's I managed to drive home had only the front GB mount and one mount above the clutch still intact, had ~1mm movement in the crank bearings (side to side not forward/back!!). That neglect was through every part of the bus, and still got me home! That poor old beast got sent to the knackers after it was stripped to keep other bus's on the road.

    If the 63mm tube on the filter inlet is the one that goes to above the battery, rather than factory I used rubber hose from this place years ago. Lasts much better
    https://www.brisbaneaircleaners.com.au/

    I was fortunate enough to source NOS heads for my build (genuine VW), which is why I went with ceramic coating! I re-used original barrels with over sized K&S (OEM) pistons.
     

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