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Needing some Uncommon Distrubuter advice.

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by 68BUS, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. oldman

    oldman Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,625
    Location:
    Avalon Beach NSW
    Hey Brad, if you weren't so far away I'd suggest Mike at CBB VW. He deals with tricked electrics like fly by wire, ECU's (for Haltech) etc.
    There's not much he hasn't dealt with.
    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  2. Kai

    Kai Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,793
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
  3. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Thats what I first requested. But no. Not sure why, just keeps telling me to find the parts from repco. Which is fine, but i could not get them at repco in batemans bay. Going to head to Acacia ridge one on the weekend. They shoukd be able to order them in if they are not in stock.
     
  4. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I will give him a call if i am going to try electric. I have a good mechanic and auto elec up here to fit anything. But they are both $100/hr. So non standard stuff adds up quick.
     
    oldman likes this.
  5. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

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    4,612
    Location:
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  6. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,477
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Piss poor backup :(
     
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  7. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,101
    Location:
    Woy Woy
    This makes me cry. Twin spark volks motors have a good reputation right around the globe when fitted to light planes. Guess planes run twin magnetos, have good air flow for cooling, and reliability is paramount over hill climb race performance. So sad to see after sales support is not quite so supportive. Would also suggest a call to CBBVW, as Mike does do house calls. Travels the continent for organized workshop/fixit/dyno weekends/weeks for like minded volks fiends. Does subies too.
     
    peter drogi and oldman like this.
  8. Mordred

    Mordred Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,002
    Location:
    Penna, Hobart
    Going back to the overheating and not hot enough around town, and I am not sure of the setup for a Type 1 but there are temperature bypass valves available that will not let the extra oil cooler come into effect until the oil temp reaches 92 degrees. It just lets the oil bypass internally until that temp is reached and then the valve closes and the oil is forced through the external cooler. This is an example.

    [​IMG]

    I have a similar set up on my Type IV built in to the oil filter take off sandwich plate and it works a treat. Quick up to 92 c then stays there until i get out in the heat with big hills and hot outside temps.

    Just a thought.

    Adrian
     
    68BUS likes this.
  9. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I actually just had one of these delivered from Das Parts. I did not see them on the site when I bought the rest of the gear.
    Plus it claims to have a slightly open valve permanently to prevent pressure build up.
    The funny thing is I now have a thermo fan that comes on at the same temp as bypass valve. So my oil should hopefully reach temp and then not move from it getting any hotter.
     
  10. Mordred

    Mordred Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    3,002
    Location:
    Penna, Hobart
    I would have thought if it isn’t getting to temp around town that it may be over cooling just running to the ext cooler and back. From your pics the fan temp switch is at the cooler location so it will not be getting the true engine temp as the oil will cool some what in the lines. Putting the ten valve unit close to the engine will keep the warm up heat in the engine (on a cold start) and then let any excess hot oil head up to the ext cooler where the fan can switch in if it isn’t cooling the oil a a great enough rate. I dont have a cooling fan on mine, just angled slightly and has airflow through it, and it works very well. Huge difference with and without it.

    Just my observation.

    Good luck.

    Adrian
     
  11. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    It is over cooling with the 96 plate on its own. The fan would only kick in on hot freeway drives. But I have never actually heard it running as the cooler is too good. Which is why I going o fit the cooler bypass in.
    The thermo fan switch was installed on the side of the cooler where the oil is heading back to the engine. So that if it is still hot after passing through the cooler it can have a boost.
    I figure that if I fit the oil bypass inbetween the cooler and the engine, with the thermo switch on the cooler side, it will provide the best solution.
    That way the thermo fan, if it happens to kick in a couple of degree's cooler then the bypass, it does not just run for the sake of running.

    Reality is, I don't think the fan is even required given the cooling capacity of the 96 plate. But in the middle of a qld summer, and with a bit of debree build up in the plates over a dusty trip or several dusty trips, it might come into its own.
    I guess the big thing is making sure my oil can still get upto temperature which is something it is not doing with the current setup.
     
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  12. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,477
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    As an aside.
    Don't know much re twin spark but understand that timing is conservative due to increased burn of mixture.
    Possibly 26BTDC twin spark vs 35BTDC @3K RPM ( generalisation on different vw AC engine )
    Thus would expect a significant % of power loss on one spark setup ( if same timing point as for the twin spark) due to effectively running retarded spark .

    Additionally..
    Don't understand how he can claim that a specific lead would give retards dation of timing from dissy to coil , or be read as such by inductive pickup on timing light.?

    Resistance doesn't change V speed , just voltage drop.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  13. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,854
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    When it comes to twin spark, as Sheldon would say Hokum
    Twin spark was about emissions because of in efficient combustion chambers.
    Efficient combustion chamber shapes (how many late model engines use twin spark) solve the problem.
    My R1200GS has twin spark, take the bottom sparks out makes no dif to power, just emissions in hc and co
    Go to some head specialist sites and you will see some innovative combustion chamber design. AMC would do well to redesign vw heads to suit higher efficiency.
    Don't think that's going to happen
    just my opinion.
     
    gazman likes this.
  14. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Thanks gents.
    I am also not sure how the leads would be so insulated as to throw a reading out. I have seen a video of timing with a multimeter plugged in somehow. Hopefully the mechanic know that trick.

    And the twin spark thing. He was doing it for aeroplane motors 3 decades ago due to the redundancy laws. And found it increased power and made a larger and lower power band. I assume it must work as he sells both the dual and single 1916 motors with the same internals. Just the heads change (i believe - could be other parts too).

    And there is a real difference in feel at the moment. Might be because it is not timed right. Might be the single spark.
    But when it runs normal. It pulls very well to 80km and well enough for a kombi beyond that to 110. (Top end might be limited by gearbox more then engine).
    And good power from 1500rpm. Tops out by feel at 4500rpm. Never pushed beyond that, might go further. I am not game to push it any harder.
     
  15. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    So,
    My plan of getting parts for the dizzy might not be the best plan of attack.
    Just had a chat with a helpful lady from repco. The Dizzy module comes from two suppliers. One has discontinued it because it is 30 years old.
    The other seems to have two left in Sydney.
    What a stupid piece of technology to keep designing with!

    Before I buy the last two from Sydney I am going to give more consideration to the electronic dizzy.

    Damn Car! Why cannot anything just be simple. o_O

    Gripe over... HAHA.
     
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  16. grumble

    grumble Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,361
    Location:
    Taree
    There were q few problems with the twin point distributor the most common one was that if there was a lead with a high resistance the spark would jump inside the rotor and burn through, only one coil works at a time. From memory one side is advanced more at certain times and at others the retard coil works to reduce emissions. I would have to go back to the manual to be certain but i cannot understand why this system would be used but that also goes for the Ford Mondeo ignition setup that some are using.
     
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  17. oldman

    oldman Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,625
    Location:
    Avalon Beach NSW
    Damn Car! Why cannot anything just be simple. o_O
    .....well they can ...........but SOME people insist on stroked donks with bells n whistles.....:rolleyes:
    Hope you get it sorted mate.
    Cheers,
    Mark
     
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  18. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Haha. Yeah, true.
    Goes pretty quick though.
    ;)
     
  19. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,612
    Location:
    Brisbane
    This is the response from Mick at Joe Blow.
    Seems pretty simple.

    Would you guys take this on yourself or get a mechanic involved? Given that I have a decent idea of basics, but I am very far from a mechanic or auto elec.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Yes my system will support dual spark and work on your engine, I actually run a dual plug setup on my own bus, which is part of the reason that I developed the system.
    The system is basically a distrubutor-less set up that uses a crank trigger to sync the engine position with the spark. It uses a modern coil pack to provide the spark. In the case of dual spark it drives two coil packs - one for each set of plugs. I generally set them up so that you have one coil pack per head so that you can mount one on each side of engine bay and minimise plug lead length
    To convert your engine you need to remove the distributor and distributor drive gear and fit the supplied blanking plug. (This set up does not use a distributor.)
    Install the two coil packs in a suitable location
    Swap your existing crank pulley for the one supplied with the kit and fit the crank sensor (the crank pulley has the trigger wheel pre-fitted)
    Mount the ECU
    Mount the engine temp sensor
    Mount the inlet air temp sensor
    Run the wiring loom and plug in the sensors
    Connect to power.
    Hook up a vac signal to your carby.
    That’s it.
    It comes with the spark map pre-programmed with a custom advance map based on standard VW mechanical and vacuum advance curves so there is nothing to program. If you have forced induction the positive side of the spark map is pre-programmed to work up to 2.5 bar with 1 deg / psi retard for anything over 100kpa, so again it will generally work out of the box on blown and turbo setups as well.
    With dual spark there is also the opportunity to push the timing to take advantage of the shorter flame front travel by running less advance (ie more power). Not sure what Stan set his distributors up to, but if you have any spark curve info from Stan I can pre-program the unit to this for you. I run my own setup with the custom curve and it works great. This will also be fine in all other dual plug setups, but if you are tuning for power and want to push the timing, you also have that option too. The system is fully mappable by the user.
    To clarify pricing, the $650 price as shown on the site only includes one coil pack. For dual spark an additional coil pack and wiring will be required. This takes the price up to $730.
    Other than that, depending on your existing electrical setup, the only other things you may need are a relay and fuse.
    If you have any other questions, please feel free to give me a shout.

    Best regards
    Mick
    Joe Blow
    http://joeblow.me
    +61(0)8 7221 3004
     
  20. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,904
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    Seems pretty good.

    Not that hard to set up?

    Do you have a vac signal on your motor?

    Other than that it is straight forward
     

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