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recommendations for engine/gearbox

Discussion in 'Splitty Tech Clinic' started by Saggas, Jul 14, 2011.

  1. Saggas

    Saggas New Member

    Messages:
    1,071
    Location:
    Canberra
    ok, so I have an 11 window which is starting its restoration process.
    main aim of this project, is to have a daily driver split.
    will have irs rear (possibly creative)
    id like to use a freeway flyer gearbox, even looked at purchasing a rancho

    searching on thesamba, has revealed alot of people claiming best motor for daily driver is 1770 with dual 40's,
    but part of me wants to go a 2ltr bay motor with upright cooling, but then will the gearbox ratio be out? or would I have to do some hackery to fit a 2ltr bay box?

    wheels will be stock 15's with low profile tyres.

    any comments or advice on what people are currently running or want to run? note im not trying to build a street weapon, just want longevity and reliability and the ability to cruise up hills at current traffic speeds.
     
  2. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    To fit the 2 liter bay motor you will have to modify the engine bay, rear valance ect, then there is fitting the exhaust.
    A standard beetle IRS box will be fine if you go 1776 or above. Use the money you saved on the box on better engine parts.

    4 splits went to the Mt Gambier Bus Stop.
    One with a straight axle with 1600 twin port and twin 44 webers
    One with a beetle box , Creative IRS and a stock 1600 single port.
    One with a beetle box and Creative IRS and a stock 1600 twin port.
    And mine , stock type 3 IRS box , Creative IRS, 2007 engine with twin 40 mm Dellotos, I used more than a liter of fuel less per 100kms than the others?
    Bigger the engine the less work it has to do.
    Also the more blueprinted, or should I say corectly put together the more efficient it is.
    Mine recorded 100 bhp at the rear wheels so about 125 at the flywheel.
    It was still making power on the dyno at 175kmh.
    I had it to 115 mph and there was loads left.(not speedo but GPS, so I know it was correct)

    It all boils down to what you want it to do.
    I sat down with my builder and he asked what I wanted from the engine, I said I wanted sub 18 second quater miles (done that)
    I wanted to overtake cars going up a well know hill in Adelaide, Willunga Hill ( done that)
    I also wanted it to do over 100mph (well and truly done that)

    One bit of advice find a decent engine builder, turn key engines from the states are all built for beetles and are high revving with light flywheels, you neeed the stock flywheel for momentum and you don't want a van that makes peek power at 7000rpm.
    Also I have heard the turnkeys from a certain manufacturer are built by semi skilled people on a per unit basis so the more they build the more money they make??

    I bought a good crank and when my builder checked it, one of the oil gallery holes was .5 mm out so he had it machined correctly, this is what you pay a good builder for, doing the job correctly.

    You need torque and that comes down to the parts you use. It has to be built for a van.

    If you need to talk to someone I can PM you my engine builder, one of the best around.
    I dont know engines I rely on experts, as anyone should, it can be an expensive learning experience, the above is just what I have picked up and what has worked for me.
    And you can ask anyone whos been in my van what it was like??

    Also just as an idea, I have a mate who has purchased all his engine parts himself, after getting the correct information, and he is then giving them to a builder, that way he saves money as the builder is not having to scource all the parts.
    The main thing is you need to know what you want the van to do.
    Same with restos when looking for a builder, get referances from people who have had engines built by them, same as a resto, ask people who have lived with the engine for a while, not when its just been built, you need to know it will last.

    My personal opinion is I would never buy a second hand performance engine, why are they selling it in the first place? was it built for a van originally? who built it? how many miles? what compression ration? what cam? what size valves, what port job, ect ect ect., too many variables

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  3. Red Kev

    Red Kev Member

    Messages:
    468
    Location:
    Moonee Beach
    I'm no expert, but I think a 1776 and a tall gearbox might not be very hill friendly, might find yourself changing down on the longer hills earlier than you'd like to.

    I looked into an upright Type 4, but decided against it. (1) A good performance Type 4 is three times as expensive as a good performance Type 1. (2) You can get good, reliable, strong 2 litre+ performance from a mod'd Type 1. (3) A Type 1 is tons easier for a hack like me to work on if needs be. (4) No need to cut tinware and other body mods if you stick to a Type 1. (5) Type 1 parts are ubiquitous and many made new; I don't think Type 4s are as well catered for and some can be pretty expensive (I've heard that performance heads require a second mortgage) (6) I reckon if you took a Type 4 upright to most VW mechanics they'd scratch their arse, their balls, then their heads. (7) Type 1 engines are dead sexy. Chicks dig 'em.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  4. Red Kev

    Red Kev Member

    Messages:
    468
    Location:
    Moonee Beach
    That's gotta be the title of a Country and Western song, Dave

    Or maybe an Iain Banks novel.
     
  5. vassy69SC

    vassy69SC Active Member

    Messages:
    986
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I would certainly point you in the direction of a stroker type 1 motor.
    No butchering the engine bay and the heavy costs of a type IV rebuild.
    I have a 2165 (78.2mm stroke by 94mm barrels) with twin 44idf webers.
    I do drive it every day. 20,000km a year.
    Do it once and do it right. Realistically an engine of high quality by a good engine builder will be around the 10K. I have 95HP at the wheels, 11l/100km and it runs at 80 degrees on the oil temp.
     
  6. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    It was actually 5 splits went from Adelaide but I only know that Colin has a 1600 and IRS but not sure of the carby or if twin or single port?
    Dave
     
  7. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Also you cant get new type 4 cases so the cost of finding one, crack testing, line boring must be added.
    And the case could be nearly 40 years old?
    Dave
     
  8. VolksVair

    VolksVair New Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Geelong VIC
    Dave, I am intrigued about this crankshaft oil gallery that was 0.5mm off, can your mechanic give us a heads up on it and what machining took place to rectify it, thanks Frank
     
  9. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Not sure I can remember the name of who made the crank but I know he sent it to a machinist who enlarged the opening so it lined up with the grove in the bearing
    Dave
     
  10. Saggas

    Saggas New Member

    Messages:
    1,071
    Location:
    Canberra
    woah! again Dave you have brought the goods. I shall reply properly when ive had a chance to read this fully!
    cheers for everyone elses input :)
     
  11. VolksVair

    VolksVair New Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Geelong VIC
    Thanks for that Dave, I just couldn't imagine how the engine builder could measure the difference 0.5mm could have made, considering that you have more than that in crankshaft end float. Please dont be offended with my question here, as I never wish to offend anyone, I just wonder sometimes what mechanics say to their clients.
     
  12. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    No offense taken , he builds the motor about 5 times checking everything is spot on.
    That's why he's one of the best around.
    Dave
     
  13. vassy69SC

    vassy69SC Active Member

    Messages:
    986
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Measurements can be a whole lot finer than that.
    The centre main bearing for my engine was 0.02 of a thousandth of an inch out of tolerance.
    That is 0.0005mm.
    The machines owned by good crankshaft shops to measure these are tens of thousands of dollars worth.
    We had the bearing fitted to a chevy rod we machined out so that the 0.0005mm could be machined out. The reason. Keep the oil pressure to the connecting rods at exactly the right pressure.
     
  14. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Yes little things like that are the difference between an engine builder and a "good " engine builder, thankfully mine is one of the best.
    Dave
     
  15. VolksVair

    VolksVair New Member

    Messages:
    414
    Location:
    Geelong VIC
    Hi Vassy, I too, understand the tollerances & measurements on bearings, but the discussion is about the location of the oil gallery hole on the crankshaft, being 0.5 out, I am saying that the end float on a crank can be alot greater than that, so there for that 0.5 will never be an issue, cheers Frank
     
  16. twincabay

    twincabay Active Member

    Messages:
    559
    Location:
    port maquarie
    Yes lots they dont fit. Also what the others said .

    You are on the correct track considering gear ratio to HP implications . A 1600 TP with standard gearbox might just make it up a certain hill without changing down to 3rd. A 1500 SP wont.
    Rolling diameter, that is wheel sizes and tyre profile are also big movers in this area ( pun intended).

    I personally dont wish to go 115 mph especially in a daily driver and a splitscreen.
    MY ideal would be a EFI 1915 or a 1776 as it would be very reliable and cost effective.
    Also well matched to a split .I would prefer to save the expense of a larger CC ( or type 4 ) build and spend on the EFI gear and get awesome drivability, great cold starts and good torque all essential for a daily driver.
    One thing for sure as dave pointed out there are too many options and even more opinions on the topic.
    Mitchell
     
  17. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    Agree that there are way too many opinions that's why you really need to discuss with an actual engine builder.
    One comment regarding the EFI, I looked into it and the major player is CB , but if you have a problem it's easier to clean out a jet on a twin carb set up than get parts for the CB EFI set up as I don't know anyone in Australia who stocks spares?
    Dave
     
  18. Saggas

    Saggas New Member

    Messages:
    1,071
    Location:
    Canberra
    i wanted to go twin carbs for ease of use/tuning/service-ability
    but am i being naive to the service-ability of efi?
     
  19. Saggas

    Saggas New Member

    Messages:
    1,071
    Location:
    Canberra

    i like the sound of that.. not that im being a tight A$$, just trying to be economical about this build. save it blowing out 10x
     
  20. Split 1

    Split 1 New Member

    Messages:
    7,037
    Location:
    Adelaide
    I think EFI is the way to go in the future, just at the moment there isnt enough made kits for VW applications and if anything goes wrong, it is hard to get the parts (if needed) its all US made and no one here stocks spares.
    Then there is building your own EFI setup, but to me this wasnt an option as I wouldnt know what I was doing????

    I went twin Dells and as you know I fitted a type 3 engine hatch as the jets on a Dell or Weber are in the top of the carb so to get to them you either need the hatch or you have to take the carbies off every time, we took ages actually tuning mine to get it right.
    We went through quite a few combinations of mains, idle,air correction ect, without the hatch it would have been carbies off about a dozen times.

    But the best advice I can give you is talk directly to a good engine builder, as everyone has their own idea of what makes a good engine, like me, and I admit I wouldnt have a clue, its just what I have learnt from my builder and what he managed to get my engine to do.
    Dave
     

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