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Retro-fitting supplementary gauges

Discussion in ''How To' & 'Handy Hints'' started by Nigel, Jan 25, 2009.

  1. t4camper

    t4camper Active Member

    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    rainy Maleny
    Very comprehensive post Nige, unfortunately not very suited to touring Australia as by the time you checked all the gauges you would miss the bloody country side or would be eating roadkill for a week!! LOOK-OUT, SKIPPY.:lol:

    Seriously I could probably telll you how to size your shunt, but I shalln't, as my lifelong humble allocation of words are needed for more important things, ordering beer at the pub.:umm:

    Neil
     
  2. vwfreak03

    vwfreak03 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,549
    Location:
    Hobart, Tasmania
    Have seen online on line now that you can buy an amp meter without the internal shunt.....that should keep him happy.
     
  3. Nigel

    Nigel Member

    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    Canvey Island, Essex, UK
    On 30th July 2012, Nigel A. Skeet wrote:

    « A few weeks ago, I bought in a clearance sale, for a total cost of £25•20 (£15•00 sale price + £6•00 shipping + £4•20 VAT @ 20%), a new VDO Cockpit International -60~0~60 A ammeter (internal shunt-resistor type), which closely matches the style, of my existing VDO Cockpit accessory gauges, including an 8~16 V voltmeter. »

    http://www.furneauxriddall.com/acatalog/VDO-Cockpit-International-Clearance-Models.html

    « Ideally, I would like to remove the internal shunt resistor and transform the gauge, into a remote-shunt ammeter, with the shunt resistor mounted in the engine compartment, enabling me to monitor battery charging & discharging, by means of light-duty wiring, carrying just a few milliamps. If I could find a way to accurately measure the resistance of the shunt resistor, I could fabricate at least one, remote-mounted shunt resistor, to monitor the overall current supplied, to the rest of the electrical system, using the same gauge, in conjunction with a two-pole selector switch. »


    « Having spent just over £25, the question remains, as to whether I am brave enough, to attempt removing the gauge bezel, so that I can determine whether it is possible, to remove the internal shunt resistor, so that it can be converted into a remote-shunt ammeter. Ideally, I seek someone who has already undertaken such a conversion!?! If I cannot find anyone who has already done this, with a VDO or other brand of ammeter, I shall probably first experiment, with an old Lucas -30~0~30 A ammeter, I have had in my future-project's box, for circa 30 years. »


    Crikey, can it really be nearly six years since I wrote that!

    During the past six years, I have been slowly acquiring some more items for the eventual refurbishment, refit & recommissioning, of my 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 (awaiting a modified VW 411LE, 1911 cm³ displacement, VW 17/1800 Type 4 style engine) Westfalia Continental campervan, which has been in hibernation since late-1992.

    I have previously mentioned my intention to substitute a three-piece, custom-made instrument panel, in place of the original factory-fitted, black-plastic, moulded instrument binnacle and the home-made, sheet-aluminium instrument panel (with provision for six VDO Cockpit gauges and two changeover switches) which resides in the centre of the dashboard, where a radio would usually be fitted.

    Sometime ago, I acquired from one of my flooring-contractor acquaintances, some rather nice large off-cuts of 19 mm "Oak Rustic AB - 17E WIT" luxury plywood flooring material (i.e. 15 mm, 11-ply plywood with 4 mm oak facing), which will probably make quite a nice instrument panel, if I can find a way to use my router and/or chisels, to create a neat variable-depth rebate, to accommodate the top-to-bottom curvature of the steel dashboard.

    Before I start work on this, I await the arrival (hopefully sometime later this year) from my VW Type 2 pen-pal in California, of a circa 100 mm diameter, dual scale (mph & km/h) speedometer with integral fuel gauge and seven integral warning lights, originating from a USA specification VW Type 1 Beetle Automatic (the only specification to have the maximum of 7 warning lights, so far as I know!).

    This speedometer will form the centre piece of the main instrument panel, so I need to finalise the location and hole size for this, before I cut the other holes for the 52 mm diameter, VDO Cockpit accessory gauges and either one or two customised 60 mm diameter, Lucas 6WL 8-segment warning-light clusters.

    In addition to the VDO Cockpit International -60~0~60 A ammeter, I have also since obtained the following three additional 52 mm diameter, NOS - new-old-stock, VDO Cockpit accessory instruments, for relatively modest prices:

    -30~0~30 A ammeter (VDO Part No. 190/004/039/001)

    -50~0~50 A ammeter (VDO Part No. 190/004/039/002)

    0~6000 rpm alternator-sensed tachometer (VDO Part No. 333/230/105/003) dated February 1987

    At sometime in the future, I also hope to obtain either a 0~30 in.Hg or 0~1 Bar, VDO Cockpit inlet-manifold vaccum gauge, to replace my existing TIM Instruments 0~30 in.Hg inlet-manifold vaccum gauge, but when and if that might come to pass, remains to be seen.

    VDO Cockpit 0~30 in.Hg inlet-manifold vacuum gauge

    [​IMG]

    VDO Cockpit 0~1 Bar inlet-manifold vacuum gauge of circa 1969 vintage

    https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1791584

    [​IMG]

    https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1791583

    [​IMG]

    https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1791581

    [​IMG]

    https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1791580

    [​IMG]

    When in early-1993, I wrote a detailed letter containing a long list of questions to the VDO concessionary in Great Britain, they responded by sending me a copy of the then current VDO Automotive & Industrial Parts Catalogue (Autocat 925) together with the November 1992 price list. At that time, the list prices of both ammeters were £21•11, but the alternator-sensed tachometer was £67•90 which was rather more expensive.

    These days one can buy for about £75•00, 52 mm diameter, VDO Cockpit International 0~6000 rpm tachometers which offer the selectable option of both alternator-sensing and ignition-system-sensing, which if one has a petrol engine, potentially avoids the need to incorporate a W-terminal into the alternator, from which to sense a single-phase sine-wave signal for the tachometer.

    However, VDO Cockpit International instruments do not exactly match all of the features of the earlier VDO Cockpit instruments and the VDO Cockpit International 0~6000 rpm tachometers are calibrated in 500 rpm increments in contrast to the VDO Cockpit 0~6000 rpm tachometer's 200 rpm increments.

    I had recently been considering one of these, but by a stroke of serendipity, I learned of a job-lot of three late-1980s vintage, NOS - new-old-stock VDO Cockpit 0~6000 rpm alternator-sensed tachometers, which I eagerly bought before anyone else had the opportunity.

    This is a job-lot of three, circa 1980s vintage, NOS - new-old-stock, 52 mm diameter, VDO Cockpit 0~6000 rpm alternator-sensed engine-tachometers.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    First Marked: 230/105/3 | 12V | 993 1660 Hz | massefrei | 10.86 | justierbar | NO2 10.86

    Second Marked: 230/105/3 | 12V | 993 1660 Hz | massefrei | 10.86 | justierbar | NO2 10.86

    Third Marked: 333/230/105/3 | 12V/993 1660 Hz | 2.87 | justierbar | masseFrei | NO2 2.87


    Many years ago, before the rise of the Internet, I had already modified my VW Type 4 style engine's alternator so that it could provide a signal to the 52 mm diameter, NOS - new-old-stock VDO Cockpit "Night Design" 0~6000 rpm alternator-sensed tachometer, that I had bought in a clearance sale at my local independent VW parts supplier, sometime during 1992/93.

    VDO Cockpit 'Night Design' 52 mm accessory 6000 rpm tachometer

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    W-terminal creation on a VW Type 4 engine's Bosch alternator

    [​IMG]

    It's unlikely that I would need three identical VDO Cockpit tachometers or a VDO Cockpit "Night Design" tachometer (my 1974 Triumph Toledo 1300 "HL Special" requires a completely different 100 mm diameter, Smiths or Jaeger tachometer to serve my needs), so before I sell off the surplus tachometers (two VDO Cockpit and one VDO Cockpit "Night Design"), I would like to bench test them to ensure that they function correctly.

    I also have an 80 mm diameter, VDO Cockpit 0~7000 rpm tachometer (ignition-system-sensed!?!) that is surplus to requirements, which I bought for a very modest sum at a local autojumble sale many years ago. This might or might not work, but I would like to be sure one way or the other!

    My friend has a sine-wave signal generator which I suspect it might be possible to use, but I would be interested to learn what experience if any, others might have had of bench-testing alternator sensed and/or ignition-system-sensed tachometers.

    The VW Type 4 style engine's crankshaft-pulley and alternator-pulley, have external diameters of 220 mm and 90 mm respectively, so when the engine's crankshaft is rotating at 6000 rpm (i.e. 100 rps or 100 Hz, given that 1 minute = 60 seconds), I would expect the alternator shaft to be rotating at circa 244•4 Hz (100 Hz x 220 / 90).
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  4. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    If you want to be accurate (and I think you do from reading some of your posts) then measure the drive and driven pulley's pitch diameter. The pitch diameter is the point where little or no slippage occurs between the belt and the pulley. Although it's very difficult to determine accurately, in most cases it will be somewhere in between the base and the top of the pulley's groove. Inspect the belt while it's off of the pulley by bending it. The outer surface will stretch, and the inner will compress. The pitch diameter coincides with the point where neither compression nor stretching occurs.
     
    David H likes this.
  5. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    701
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    Or you could measure the rpm of each pulley using a tachometer of type with the reflective strip if contact is not possible. I'm sure they'd be cheap to buy in Australia through Supercheap Auto but I also notice Kennards Hire have them.
     
    David H likes this.
  6. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    701
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    Also, the alternator shaft with its smaller diameter pulley will rotate faster than the crankshaft. Your formula is right but it equals 244.4 Hertz not 24.4 Hertz.
     
  7. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    I think you're better off with an ignition sensing tacho.
    if you are trying to mate a random alt sensing tach to your engine you might want to know how many north and south polls are on the rotor (4, 6, 8 polls) that will vary the frequency per revolution plus there's belt slip and inaccurate pully dimension calcs. I know analog tach's aren't that accurate but you could be way off.
     
  8. Nigel

    Nigel Member

    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    Canvey Island, Essex, UK
    After my one-hour public-library Internet session finished, I had a feeling that I had positioned the decimal point incorrectly and was going to check when next I had an Internet session. I have since corrected that mistake. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    oldman and Mr Beckstar like this.
  9. Nigel

    Nigel Member

    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    Canvey Island, Essex, UK
    Unless I were to buy a modern Vee-Three or VDO Cockpit International 0~6000 rpm tachometer, with the option of both alternator sensing and ignition-system sensing, there are few if any other choices of 52 mm diameter, 0~6000 rpm tachometers which would be a reasonable visual match to my existing complement of 1970s & 1980s vintage, VDO Cockpit accessory gauges.

    Besides that, I cannot be sure that an ignition-sensing-tachometer would be compatible with my late-1980s vintage, points-sensed, Microdynamics "Formula 1" FCD - frequency controlled dwell electronic ignition system, the technical leaflets for which warn against RVI type tachometers. Given that few tachometers specify whether they are of RVI, RVC or other type, I don't want to take the risk.

    I shall be operating one or other of factory-standard Bosch 55A or Bosch 70A alternators, as factory-fitted to 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 engines. I don't know how many N or S poles either of them have, but I am aware that they are 3-phase, of which one is used to provide a single-phase signal via a "W-terminal" to the alternator-sensing tachometer.

    The Bosch 70A alternator is not yet in my possession, but I just learned yesterday, that one of my VW Type 2 e-mail pen-pals is bringing a second-hand one over for me next week from California, together with a USA specification, VW Type 1 Beetle Automatic speedometer. The 70A alternator (normally fitted as standard to VW 18/2000 Type 2s with an Eberspächer, petrol-fired, auxiliary space-heater), is to provide the additional current that might be needed when I eventually retro-fit a two-zone, electrically-heated front windscreen, for which the anticipated current consumption is 2 x 19A.

    The only purpose of calculating the approximate pulley-ratio (i.e. 220 : 90), was to obtain a reasonable estimate of the sine-wave signal frequency range, that would be needed to test the functionality of the alternator-sensing alternators. I am acquainted with the concept of a neutral-axis with reference to zero tension & compression in beams under bending loads, which would probably be close to half way between upper and lower surfaces.

    Both the VDO Cockpit & VDO Cockpit "Night Design" 0~6000 rpm alternator-sensing tachometers in my possession, have a calibration adjustment screw, which enables one to change the tachometer reading at a given engine speed. To calibrate the alternator-sensing tachometer, one needs another suitable tachometer to determine the actual engine speed; which in my case will probably be a second-hand SNAP-ON TOOLS combination tachometer & dwell-meter that I bought several years ago. The Microdynamics electronic-ignition unit can be switched over to non-electronic ignition, so there should be no problem re compatibility with the SNAP-ON TOOLS tachometer.
     
  10. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    The 3 phases have nothing to do with the rotor. That is achieved by 3 sets of coils in the stator (connected in star or delta)
    The frequency of any of the single phases is governed by the number of north and south polls, hence my remark about that.
    Is your adjustment capable of halving or doubling the reading which would be the difference between 4 and 8 claws?
    I am going into the workshop this morning and will check on the number of polls on the 55A and 70A alternators as I have some stripped down at the moment.
    will post tonight.
    VW Heritage have a retro look tachometer that seems capable of reading all signals that might suit your needs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    David H and oldman like this.
  11. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    By the way the fact that you are familiar with the neutral axis concept would have your pulleys at approximately 214 and 84 assuming the outside of the belt is in line with the top of the pulley.
    220/90 = an overdrive ratio of 0.41
    214/84 = an overdrive ratio of 0.39
     
  12. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    644
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    12 claws for both the 55A & 70A rotors (6 pos, 6 neg)
     
    David H likes this.
  13. Nigel

    Nigel Member

    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    Canvey Island, Essex, UK
    At the moment, I am not sure what the adjustment range is. You might be able to deduce it from the following link, which is a scan of the installation instruction leaflet.

    Electrical-circuit wiring diagram and installation instructions for VDO Cockpit "Night Design", alternator-sensed tachometer

    http://s275.photobucket.com/user/naskeet/media/VDO-Alt-W-Tach.jpg.html?sort=3&o=149

    Also shown, are the alternator internal circuit modifications needed, to incorporate a W-terminal for connection to the alternator-sensing tachometer.

    When you refer to a retro-look tachometer from VW Heritage, are these the VERY EXPENSIVE tachometers that are in either of the three styles of grey, grey & black faced VDO instruments that were factory-fitted to the 1968~79 VW Type 2s? Given that I am discarding this style of instrumentation and the original moulded-plastic instrument binnacle, the aforementioned tachometer would not be of much use to me.
     
  14. Nigel

    Nigel Member

    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    Canvey Island, Essex, UK
    1968~79 VW Type 2 Style VDO Tachometers


    These days, there are now aftermarket 0~6000 rpm, 0~6500 rpm and/or 0~7000 rpm tachometers available (constructed by modifying VDO instruments), of the three styles matching those of the 1968~79 VW Type 2’s factory-fitted VDO instruments (i.e. 1968~73 grey-faced with chrome inner trim ring, 1974~75 grey-faced and 1975~79 black-faced), which fit exactly in the spare clock aperture, mounted from behind the instrument binnacle.

    http://www.smiths-instruments.co.uk/vw

    Several years ago, I was contacted via the Australian Kombi Club forum, by an Australian resident in Great Britain, seeking advice about creating such a tachometer using an 80 mm diameter, VDO tachometer as the basis, having seen a picture in The Samba Gallery, that I had scanned of a combination VW Type 2 style tachometer & oil temperature-indicator, from the Spring 2004 issue of VWC&C magazine.

    1968~79 VW Type 2, ONG, combined tachometer & oil-temperature indicator

    https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=336268

    [​IMG]


    I suspect that there are a few different individuals or companies (including Smiths – a Welsh instrumentation company has taken over rights to the name), who are now manufacturing and/or marketing 1968~79 VW Type 2 style tachometers; some of which I think are available from Just Kampers & VW Heritage in Great Britain, Mechatechnic in France, AVR Import Specialties, in British Columbia, Canada, plus at least one other source in North America.

    From what I can deduce, it appears to be the Smiths units which are being sold by Just Kampers (£169•25), Mechatechnic and AVR Import Specialties (CDN$ 305•00), which seem rather expensive for just one instrument!

    https://avrparts.com/products/bus-tachometer-1

    https://avrparts.com/products/tachometer-type-2-bus-1974-75


    https://avrparts.com/products/tachometer-type-2-bus-1976-17-black-face



    https://www.mecatechnic.com/en-GB/tachometer-vw-bus-bay-window-gauges-and-indicators~BAY-INT-INS-COM.htm


    https://www.mecatechnic.com/en-GB/smiths-tachometer-for-combi-bay-window-68-73_KB11020.htm


    https://www.mecatechnic.com/en-GB/smiths-tachometer-grey-for-combi-bay-window-74-75_KB11022.htm


    https://www.mecatechnic.com/en-GB/smiths-tachometer-black-for-combi-bay-window-76-79_KB11023.htm



    http://www.justkampers.com/tachometer-type-2-bay-window-1967-1971.html


    https://www.justkampers.com/eet-41b-320-3n-tachometer-black-face-vw-t2-bay-1973-1979.html

    https://www.justkampers.com/eet-41b-320-2n-tachometer-type-2-bay-window-1967-1972.html

    https://www.justkampers.com/tachometer-type-2-bay-window-1967-1971.html
     
  15. Titch

    Titch Active Member

    Messages:
    216
    Location:
    Coolamon. NSW.
    I think I have got a very severe headache! Can't imagine what brought it on.
     
  16. Grantus

    Grantus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,642
    Location:
    Southern ACT
    I amazed that:

    a) library’s still offer that service;

    & b) anyone still does that.......o_O
     

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