Valve thrown advice please

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by Winged, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. andrew

    andrew Active Member

    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    Richmond
    I would be seriously thinking about rebuilding the whole engine. When doing up the car I avoided the engine as I thought it was only 15,000 km since it had been rebuilt.

    Having been forced to do it and despite it being off the road for 4 months I enjoyed doing it. I now have a good working knowledge and respect for the air cooled engine. I'm a fan of the 2l engine and think it is a superior upgrade to the 1600 but I am envious of the much bigger volume of options and parts available for the 1600 engines.

    From a time point of view the vast majority of time is spent waiting for work to be done or for me trying to find clear time for working on it.

    The engine removal is straight forward and takes about half a day - next time I will disconnect the engine with the car on the ground and I found a decent trolley jack was fine under the engine - Obviously the motorbike jack would be great but I opted for the engine stand.

    Once free from the gearbox - moved backwards in the same plane then lift the car clear and leave on stands.

    I stripped the engine - again pretty straight forward - I used kitchen bags and labeled everything which makes reassembly much easier. Also good for cleaning.

    Took me ages to split the case - the central bolts and nuts I missed saw me tapping away with a block of wood for ages. Finally with block split I took the case, crank and heads to crankshaft rebuilders. They have endless jobs on and I didn't push so it ended up being there for 2 months. If pushed I'm sure ip they could have had it all back to me in 2 weeks

    In parallel I had a number of calls with Rod Penrose and we talked through the cam and pistons. I bought new lifters and have the old ones but I would always be very nervous reusing them. If you want I am happy to give a couple to you.

    The only thing I bought and did not use was the oil pump - it proved too deep and did not have any clearance with the cam.

    I also rebuilt the solex carbies. Too much time to think I decided to go too webers as I have always liked the webers and had them on an 2002 many years ago. Happily a set came up on gumtree with manifolds etc. I was also happy to swap out the air filter which was pretty average after the backfiring and constant replacement. I'm rapt with the webers.

    Finally with everything back I spent about 10 hours putting reassembling the engine. Adding the gears was also a nervous job but went together perfectly. I was worried the clearances on the crankshaft were too tight and put it together, pulled it down and put it back together until I was ok. I remainder worried about this until I started the motor.

    The cam and oil pick up back in - the case went together with out issue, the oil pump added, barrels and pistons, heads, tinware - the time waiting for things saw us spend time sand blasting and cleaning everything, I also had the time ware powder coated.

    Carbies off I then slide the engine under the car, let the car down and 30 mins with Luca watching the spline and a neighbor and I giggling the engine slide back into place.

    It has then taken me a day to attach wires, bumpers, etc

    It was a great moment when oil pressure came up quickly, the plugs went in and it splutter into life.

    One teething issue - I could not understand why the carbs were so hard to get right. It turned out the fuel pump neede replacing - now done and running like a champ.

    Feel free to call and I'm happy to go through if helpful.

    Once you have made the decision to fix it - it is money and time well spent.

    Good luck
     
    Mordred likes this.
  2. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,395
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    True - but my beer mate builds motors and a 103 (?) P&C kit with an 1800 crank has the same rod ratio as 1600 type 1 and is stress free torque monster without buying low quality hi Po type 1 parts.

    I went for a drive in one of these torque monsters in a camper and was unbelievable
     
    andrew likes this.
  3. Winged

    Winged Member

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huon Valley
    Thanks Andrew. Today i went and bought a engine stand to start my 1st rebuild. Ill just have to chew though it question by question. Thanks for your detail on your experience.
    The cam is worn so are the lifters. Firstly I am unsure about the machining process. Initially what parts need machining?
     
    nils likes this.
  4. andrew

    andrew Active Member

    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    Richmond
    With the engine split you will be able to remove the cam, oil pickup and crankshaft with rods attached.

    The 2 halves of the case, the crankshaft and rods and if you are doing the heads (which I definately would at a minimum get checked) should be checked.

    In my case the case was true and was just cleaned - if needed it would have been align bored - (put back together and the places where the crankshaft bearing sits machine - this would then require bearings to match - I replaced all bearings, the crankshaft was machined 10thousands so the bearings were matched

    New bearings with the new cam and the rod bearings for the rods. The guys doing the machining know all the tolerances but they are in the Bentley bible.

    Everything will come back good to go back together.

    You will need a good torsion wrench - again all the torsions are in Bentley manual.

    One thing you might ask the machines to do is put the gears back on the crankshaft - that said mine came together perfectly but I was worried about getting the heat right - the old BBQ temp gauge was perfect and the gears went on perfectly.

    If helpful I can copy the list of bearings and seals I bought
     
  5. Winged

    Winged Member

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huon Valley
    Thanks Andrew a list will be great. Im unsure if they have vw specific machinists in Tas. But hopefully they will know what to do.
     
  6. 1500king

    1500king Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,503
    Location:
    Adelaide, SA
    The engine is worn out.

    The lifters have mushroomed. Cam wear will be worse.

    The heads are scrap metal, dropped seats.

    It needs a full rebuild.
     
    David H likes this.
  7. David H

    David H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,910
    Location:
    newcastle
    Hi Winged,
    Andrew is the answer;). 1500king is THE guru:D.
    Follow his advice:). Sorry for the answer you didn't want:(.
    Bottom up rebuild. All new bits.
    Welcome to the nightly visit to the engine stand:( & the cost.
    Be great when done & years of trouble free motoring;) & you'll have learnt a lot:p.
    Cheers
     
  8. David H

    David H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,910
    Location:
    newcastle
    As said before.
    Cheers
     
  9. 1500king

    1500king Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,503
    Location:
    Adelaide, SA
    Reasonably, add $2.5K to do the bottom end. Well worth it in your case.

    -Resize and bush the rods
    -Grind the crank
    -Replace the cam and lifters(WebCam)
    -New clutch assembly
    -Machine the case-will be fretted at the centre saddle and maybe loose bearings too.
    -New Oil pump(CNC special Type 4 pump 30mm)
    -Drill and tap all the pressure galleries for the pump.
    -Machine the flywheel for new clutch.
    -Balance the rotating assembly-fan/hub/crank/rods/pistons/flywheel/pressure plate.

    You'll never look back and you'll be able to run a thinner oil which gets around the motor faster when cold and cooling.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  10. andrew

    andrew Active Member

    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    Richmond
    Andrew (1500king) has it well sorted

    my list of parts was as follows (I also bought a new oil pump but have stuck with my the original following the cam screws being in conflict with the deeper housing)

    Engine:

    - Type 4 - Gasket Kit 029198009A
    - Camshaft Bearing - Type 4 - Standard 021198541T
    - Main-bearing-type-4-610-standard-case-010 Crank 021 198 483
    - Type 4 - Rear Main Seal 029105245B
    - Type 4 - Front Pulley Seal 021105247A 1
    - SCAT Type 4 - C35 20087
    - 94mm Porsche 914 VW Type 4 Flat Top European Style Piston & Cylinder Kit VW9400T4E
    - Type 4 - Hi Lobe Hi Performance Lifters 20091
    - Type 4 Cam Gear - high performance 20171 STD

    Head:
    - New guides, inlet and exhaust valves.

    [Also changed carbi's to Weber 40's]

    Oil Cooler:

    - Oil Cooler Sandwich Adapter 1735
    - EMPI Competition Engine Oil Cooler 9265
    - Oil line brass fittings - 1/2" NPT to 1/2" hose 9214
    - 4 metres Oil line 1/2" Internal diameter rubber tubing 9284

    Tools:

    - Clutch Alignment tool 5302-K
    - Flywheel Lock Tool - all 6 and 12 volt flywheels 5003

    My costs were circa $3.5k. I agree 100% with Andrew - money well spent - once you are
     
  11. Winged

    Winged Member

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huon Valley
    Thanks gor all that info guys, indeed its a bottom up rebuild. Loads of questions but will work though it bit by bit.

    Tom Watson makes a good argument for hydrolic lifters. What is the consensus, do they wear quicker being in constant contact with the cam lobe.
    Car is carbies and so far i have bought AMC heads and Porsche 94mm dished pistons. What cam should i get? After a good all round performance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  12. andrew

    andrew Active Member

    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    Richmond
    I used - SCAT Type 4 - C35 20087, I can pull out the spec if you like - the C25 is close to the standard cam. Also valves increased a couple of mm on both inlet and exhaust.

    All seem to be working well together
     
  13. Winged

    Winged Member

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huon Valley
    How's this look for a shopping list?

    http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-4-Camshaft-91-Grind-00-422-p/00-422.htm

    http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Hydraulic-Lifters-Type-4-Engines-00-914-p/00-914.htm

    http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Stock-Push-Rod-Hydraulic-Type-4-EACH-071-109-301-p/071-109-301.htm

    Any advice appreciated. So far i have bought new AMC heads and dished 94mm porsche pistons. My case is CJ if that matters.

    Am yet to find hydrolic suited rockers or a mod (if one exists). Nor the 30mm CNC oil pump.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  14. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,395
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    AC.net and Webcam are quality

    Says you will need HD valve springs

    I would look at getting new valve guides and possibly valves on the AMC's.
    Also consider 3angle grind.
    There is some advice in the Ratwell link

    http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Heads.html

    You also need to do a mock up to see what you deck height is and your head volume so as you can work out your compression ratio

    I have not heard of hydraulic rockers before. My experience is limited to WBX but the aftermarket is just Type 1

    I didn't look at what ratios are suited to that cam but maybe a set of 1.3:1's would be nice
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  15. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,395
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    Ok - product overview is based on 1.3's
     
  16. Winged

    Winged Member

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huon Valley
  17. Winged

    Winged Member

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huon Valley
    Andrew could you please point me in the direction or what valves you used.
     
  18. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,395
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  19. Winged

    Winged Member

    Messages:
    173
    Location:
    Huon Valley
    Thanks Barry, why solid washers? Is it to do with hydrolic lifters?
    Im having trouble chasing down the correct rocker kit for hydrolic lifters and push rods also.
    Yes i found some HD springs on aircooled.net thankyou.
     
  20. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,395
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    Most of my info is Type 1 based

    They have a wave washer in rockers that keeps the pieces in line.
    This gets replaced with a solid piece

    Type 4 don't have the same ratio as Type 1 in stock form so I will temper my comments on them
     

Share This Page