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An Engine Question

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by MattB, Jun 17, 2008.

  1. MattB

    MattB New Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Melbourne
    I'm often less than convinced by how scientific Myth Busters are. The lack of scientific procedure and experimentation leads to results that are openly interpretable. I'm not saying it's a bad show, I think it's great, but I take a lot of their 'open and closed' cases with grain of salt.

    Also, I know at least one of the times they tried to run the car solely on water, which has nothing to do with what I am attempting, and am unsure whether or not their second attempt was what I am trying to do either.

    As I said previously I am not saying this does work. I am saying I want to test it out. Telling me it wont work is all well and good, but to be honest has little to do with this post. It's not constructive when I have already explained I wish to test it myself.

    That being said, everyone is welcome to an opinion. I just thought I should go over this again to ensure others don't waste their time trying to persuade me to not do it simply because they think it will not work.

    Matt
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2008
  2. MattB

    MattB New Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Just to clear this up. I'm not angry or trying to have a go at anyone. Everyone's replies are appreciated, at least you are taking time to reply, I am just trying to reply to everyone who posts, and explain what I'm doing.

    I re-read my last post and thought it could be taken a little harshly. Not trying to offend anyone :)

    Matt
     
  3. Dingostrategy

    Dingostrategy Active Member

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    SW Vic ++
    All good science involves a literature review. This is yours!
     
  4. kombikid76

    kombikid76 New Member

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    sunny sydney
    the science of water injection doesnt seem to be that well understood (at an atomic level...), but every report ive read has only been positive.

    i decided to play around with the water injection on my bus (not really injection, more of a water feed). anyways, found this website the most useful: http://www.dave-cushman.net/misc/mannject.html

    not going to bother repeating him here, its a good read even if you arent going to do it.

    IMHO water injection is simpler and produces much better results for the effort involved, but if your having fun playing around with hydrogen then thats what its all about.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2008
  5. kombidaze

    kombidaze Member

    Messages:
    466
    Location:
    Uki NSW
    you could probably adapt a bit of the technology from lpg gas especially the way of getting the gas into the carbies maybe a smallish gas ring atop each carbi opening the vacume would do the rest. if hydrogen/oxygen mix is high octane and if you get noticable results then you can look at down the track maybe increasing compression ratio and a better cam, similar to what you have to do with lpg since its octane rating is about 108 and a lot of that available power is lost since our air cooled motors are running about 7.5 to 1 compression. of course timing changes and a fatter spark would also help.

    of course the other option is to make a methane digestor in your back yard (just need some kind of manure) and compress the gas into an lpg cylinder and away you go.
    john
     
  6. MattB

    MattB New Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Thanks, I'll check it out :)

    kombidaze:
    What you said about using LPG technology sounds pretty interesting. For my first try I doubt I will do anything this complicated, but if I continue with the project after the initial tests I will definitely consider it.

    With the methane, it's a little out of my reach at the moment. Maybe something to look at a couple of years down the road though, by that time petrol prices will probably force me to :p

    Thanks.
     
  7. peterbro

    peterbro New Member

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    57
    Location:
    Freo, W.A.
    Ah a topic dear to my heart, and that was before the fuel price hike !

    It is the only way anyone can claim that they a truly free, and that is if they are not beholden to another for energy.

    To those naysayers who talk thermodynamic theory and that you can't get something from nothing, there is much that is either unknown to most or hidden from general knowledge.

    Do a search for Stan Meyers, a man who drove a VW powered Manta across America using only water. If you can't access his patent on line, then I can upload it.

    Reading his patent you will see that he he resonated the water with the correct harmonic frequency until the aligned water molecules broke their covalent bonds and he was able to generate prodigious quantities of gas for mere mili amps of electricity.

    Oh he was poisoned to death by the way such was the threat to the status quo of his technology. There are those who don't want us to be free.

    But if you are just using straight electrolysis and using the Brown's gas to make the combustion more efficient, remember that the timing will have to be compensated as ignition will need to be TDC (depending on the volume of gas generated) and not advanced. This of course improves the efficiency as the engine is not having to 'work' against the combusting mix in the chamber.

    Check out:

    http://www.opednews.com/articles/life_a_jibbguy_080415_brown_s_gas__28_22hho_22_29_.htm

    http://www.byronnewenergy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

    If you want more info pm me.
    Cheers, good luck and don't be put off by sceptics.
     
  8. MattB

    MattB New Member

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    Location:
    Melbourne
    I've heard a little about this before, and true or not it's pretty damn interesting.

    I'm not looking for anything so dramatic at the moment, just a little experiment. Thanks for the info though. I'll be sure to have a look at those links when I get some time. Exams at the moment have me flat out.
     
  9. OberonViking

    OberonViking Active Member

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    1,821
    Location:
    Bathurst, NSW
    Go for it. The more I read the more plausible it seems, except for the whole people actually doing it. Where are all the cars that run only on water? I want one.
     
  10. StevieVW

    StevieVW Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,474
    Location:
    Somerset, Tasmania
    What drives the generator/altenator? The more current you drag out of your alt/gen the more energy it takes for the vehicle's engine to drive it, so it's not really an excess. Rather than split the atom, I think water injection could be easier.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2008
  11. beep

    beep Member

    Messages:
    40
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Hey Matt.

    Great idea and I love your thinking on this.

    And I don't want to be a naysayer but.. my understanding of your alternator is that it has no magnets. The magnetism that generates the power is caused by a current flowing through a coil (lets call it the field coil). And that voltage is regulated by some electronics, either in your alternator or that thing on your firewall with the three wires. What it does is regulate the field current so that the alternator always puts out the same voltage.. like 14 or something. Anyway if there's no load on the alt, it will produce the voltage with little mechanical resistance. Big load and the field current increases causing much more mechanical resistance. Give your alt a spin with the ignition off. You'll find no resistance. Put some voltage across the field and you can feel it.

    What I'm saying is, I don't think the alternator generates any excess power. It'll match whatever load you give it (up to a point). If you load it up with some extra electrolysis stuff you will need to get more out of burning that H than you paid to generate it.. and the alt (although very efficient i've heard of like 80-90%?) is driven by an air cooled vw engine from the 70s...

    Good luck with it buddy.
    Chris.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2008
  12. MattB

    MattB New Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Thanks for the informative post :)

    Sorry, I shouldn't have said the alternator had 'extra' voltage, I was trying to over simplify to get my point across. What I should have said is that the alternator is load-following. When a larger load is placed on the battery, the alternator is still able to account for this it just requires more energy to do so (similarly to when you drive with your headlights on). This, of course, only works to a certain point after which the alternator will be unable to recharge the battery and will result in the battery eventually becoming flat.

    My theory is that the extra energy available by the more efficient combustion is greater than that required by the alternator to keep the battery charged. Now if my theory solely relied on the energy liberated by the combustion of the gases this my idea wouldn't work. It would actually cause the engine to run less efficiently as energy would be lost at each stage and therefore more petrol required for the same amount of kinetic energy. The energy that is able to be used from the gases just means that less energy must be liberated by the more efficient combustion to overcome losses before a gain in efficiency is achieved.

    Now this is all theoretical, and I'm not sure of any of the numbers. What I'm saying though is that it is possible that it could work. That's why I want to build one and see if it does. At the moment I have my own doubts as to whether or not enough energy is being 'lost' in the un-oxidised fuel in my engine to overcome that needed by the alternator, but I thought I might as well test it to be sure. $50 isn't that much for the possibility to save on fuel.

    I'd like to thank everyone who has replied so far, it's been a great help :)

    Matt.
     
  13. beep

    beep Member

    Messages:
    40
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Ok cool Matt. I've seen bubbles coming off a battery being charged and recently used the washing-soda-and-a-battery-charger method of rust removal which also bubbles off some gas. It'd be very interesting to get some measure of the energy in -> gas out in these processes. As far as burning it in your engine goes.. that sounds like pretty hardcore chemistry to me.

    I've just got my kombi driving on efi and in the process I came across some reading that might be relevant. It has to do with mixture/ignition/emissions and stuff in the context of tuning an engine. I don't think I can do a link but if you go to www.megamanual.com and then on the left Megasquirt II->Tuning Megasquirt II and then on the right go down to Tuning and Emissions. Anyway if you have carbs I can't encourage EFI enough. I think my engine might use more fuel now but it goes like a racing car. Seriously today I put the speedo off the scale! :eek: Of course you could apply the same technology to SAVE fuel if you had a mind.. and probably control all sorts of mad scientist devices while you're at it..

    Take care
    c.
     
  14. MattB

    MattB New Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Melbourne
    My engine was EFI stock luckily :) I'll have a look that site, sounds interesting. Thanks again for the info and the input.
     
  15. peterbro

    peterbro New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Freo, W.A.
    Check out this link:
    http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/04/04/the_water_car

    and understand that all this talk about global warming, carbon trading and petrol going to $8 per litre is all ::::: by by those who are either self-righteously ignorant or worse by those who have insideous and evil intent.

    Sorry about the heavy tone of the posting, but if we were honest, $8 per litre would be the death of the Kombi !

    So keep an open mind and entertain the idea that it is possible.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2008
  16. gsa2at

    gsa2at New Member

    Messages:
    1,699
    Location:
    MAROOCHYDORE
    i have read this thread with interest
    i think the internal combustion engine will have to be replaced with a professionally produced hydrogen engine
    or we will all be walking
    i too am anxious at the potential future loss of the DAK DAK
     
  17. beep

    beep Member

    Messages:
    40
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Great thread guys. This is really interesting stuff. I've had a good look around on the web and there are plenty of people trying this.

    Here a guy in the Philippines who claims to have a car running on only water:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVhXrvCCILw

    and here's a guy who is generating gas from water and using it as a cutting torch and also claims to have a car running on petrol and the gas (I'm not suggesting that fox news is credible of course):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGhZ1EiDaJQ

    and here's an all water one from japan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OWDcWoXHs

    and there are many many more out there. Of course conventional scientific wisdom says it isn't possible to get more energy out of the gas than you used to generate it. The Stan Meyers systems seem to be based on using a particular frequency of electricity to separate the gas. Unfortunately most of these types of claim are associated with conspiracy theories (and pretty often fraud charges). However, there are heaps of people out there trying. The terminology for this seems to be overunity, more out than you put in kind of thing.

    Anyway, whatever you believe about this it is certain that if we could run our cars on hydrogen from water the world would have an unlimited, cheap and totally clean source of energy. And wouldn't THAT be exciting!
     
  18. gsa2at

    gsa2at New Member

    Messages:
    1,699
    Location:
    MAROOCHYDORE
    if water don't work!!!!

    New hybrid car runs on cow power
    Zippy car turns methane made from cow manure into fuel

    Cookson Beecher
    Capital Press

    FERNDALE, Wash. - The Viking 32, a hybrid car that runs on electricity and biomethane, is a "sweet" car by anyone's standards.

    "It's a hot rod," Eric Leonhardt, director of the Vehicle Research Institute at Western Washington University, told an appreciative group of people crowded around the car during a recent biodiesel workshop at the Alcoa Intalco plant.

    The hot-rod status comes from the car's snazzy looks coupled with its ability to go from 0 to 60 mph in less than 6 seconds. Another plus: It gets about 50 miles to the gallon.

    But what makes this car especially sweet is that its fuel emissions are so low that Leonhardt calls it the "cleanest car in the world that runs on fuel." In fact, its emissions are a hundred times below the federal limit.

    For dairy farmers, the car represents the possibility of capturing additional revenue from what is now an environmental headache - cow manure.

    The link between the two is that the car is powered by cow manure. Well, not exactly cow manure, but the methane gas captured from cow manure - in this specific case from the manure digester at Darryl Vander Haak's farm.

    An important benefit of using biomethane from cow manure instead of natural gas is that biomethane is a renewable source of energy.

    "We can turn cow power into horsepower," Leonhardt happily said during his presentation at the workshop.

    He pointed out that with 66,000 cows in the area, the manure generated by all of those cows produces the methane equivalent of 10 million gallons of gasoline every year.

    Yet this same cow manure presents a challenge when it comes to achieving federal water-quality standards.

    Leonhardt said if the methane from all of that cow manure could be captured to run vehicles, farmers and the environment would benefit.

    At Vander Haak's farm, the methane emitted from the manure is captured and turned into electricity, which the power company buys. But Leonhardt pointed out that because power rates are so cheap in the Pacific Northwest, it takes about 10 years to "pay out" the investment a farmer in this region makes in a digester.

    If it were a five-year pay out, which would be the case if biomethane could be used to power cars, more farmers would put in digesters, he said.

    That's where the Viking 32 comes into the picture. Leonhardt and his students have built a micro-refinery capable of removing the carbon dioxide and just about all of the hydrogen sulfide contained in dairy methane. Without that "scrubbing" process, the methane from cow manure isn't a practical alternative fuel.

    All of this is on a small scale, but it works, which is why Leonhardt believes the technology points the way toward future advances that would make it practical to have cars fueled by methane from cow manure.

    "The food goes in, the gas comes out," he said, putting the process into its simplest terms.

    Leonhardt's ultimate goal is to create enough demand for biomethane that dairy farmers with from 300 to 1,200 cows would have an incentive to build manure digesters.

    And while this won't happen overnight, there are signs that the day is coming. Sweden, for example, uses scrubber technology and has an entire public transit system built around natural gas.

    While still just in the beginning stages of ushering in the use of biomethane as a fuel for cars, the hybrid car has already attracted national attention, winning honors at the Tour de Sol "green car" show in May.

    - Friday, November 3, 2006

    Cookson Beecher is based in Sedro-Woolley, Wash. Her e-mail address is cbeecher@capitalpress.com.








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  19. beep

    beep Member

    Messages:
    40
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Yeah I call bulls**t on that too.

    Sorry someone had to:lol:
     
  20. MattB

    MattB New Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Just thought I'd let people know how the project's coming along. Well, to be more exact how it isn't coming along :p Due to some unforeseen necessary work on my Kombi I've not had the money to start this yet, however I plan on giving it a go in my christmas holidays, so stay tuned :p
     

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