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Engine upgrade ???

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by Guzzler Chief, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. Guzzler Chief

    Guzzler Chief New Member

    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Rochedale South
    After pounding out the kilometres at 50mph (havent had my speedo converted to KPH!) I am considering changing the engine. Before I go about making any rash decisions about replacing a perfectly good running 1600 engine I thought I would get some thoughts from you guys -

    Are there any problems fitting a 2litre kombi engine. Does anybody do this on the Goldie ? Will VW garages do a deal where you swap your engine ?

    Somebody once told me that you could drop a porsche engine in no problems, anybody done this ?? What are the problems with this ?

    Any ideas of the rough cost would be appeciated also.

    Any other advice would be most welcome.

    Thanks guys
     
  2. KahunaKombi

    KahunaKombi Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,220
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Qld
    To go to a 2 Litre Type 2/Type 4 engine there are things to consider such as tinware fitment and gearbox also.

    Keep your trusty 1600 - if you want to increase capacity and retain reliability then this is posssibly the best basis to start with - cost also as Type 2/Type 4 engines cost more + parts are harder to get and cost more. Some easy capacity increases can be achieved by new barrels and pistons + a different carby eg. Weber or go to twin carbs (this can improve perfromance) but this brings in synchronising/balancing the carbs issues.

    As for a porsche donk, well I've seen a couple but of Kombi's with them in but you're up for big $$$ to get one and depends which one you want to put it.

    Just my thoughts and no doubt some others will have agree or disagree but hopefully in the end you can make an informed decision :)
     
  3. Sheriff

    Sheriff Active Member

    Messages:
    1,560
    Location:
    Warburton - Yarra Valley
    I heard that to do a Porsche will not see much change from $30k. Subaru from $6 - $8k maybe.
    I havent heard of trade dels but I suspect if your 1600 is strong you'd have no issus selling it!
    Rich
     
  4. kommodius

    kommodius Active Member

    I think you'd be better off working your 1600.
    As Bert said, the issues involved in modifying your engine bay to accept a 2 litre is a heap of trouble.
    The 1600 upright engine is the easiest and cheapest to "play with" and can be turned into a very powerful unit.

    Doesn't LIFE IN THE LOW LANE drive a modified 1600 engined bus? (.....very quickly!!)

    Ray & da Boyz
     
  5. Mister Manstein

    Mister Manstein New Member

    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Sunshine Coast
    There's also the commodore V6 and Leyland P76/Rover alloy V8s as well. How much power do you want? : )
     
  6. Two Yanks

    Two Yanks New Member

    Messages:
    654
    Location:
    Salem, Oregon, USA
    Stick with the 1600. It can be made into a 2275 with 125 hp and still be pretty reliable. It will keep up with traffic very easy.
     
  7. Guzzler Chief

    Guzzler Chief New Member

    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Rochedale South
    Thanks for your comments guys. Im not up to speed with engines to be fair so you will have to bare with me and my stupid questions !!!

    How do you go about increasing 1600 to 2275 Two Yanks ?? Is this an expensive/hard job ??

    In regards to how much power do I want, Im only after a little bit extra to keep up with traffic on the motorway, so 90 kph top speed will do me just fine. Just makes those trips a little quicker !?!?
     
  8. Dingostrategy

    Dingostrategy Active Member

    Messages:
    4,322
    Location:
    SW Vic ++
    First, you wander down to the bank.... :eek:
     
  9. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,246
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    First off make it an 1835. The best value for money improvement for a Kombi.
     
  10. Mister Manstein

    Mister Manstein New Member

    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Sunshine Coast
    I still think the alloy V8 is the go. Get a set of tall diff gears to suit the torque and you can get your 90kph in 2nd gear : )
     
  11. Two Yanks

    Two Yanks New Member

    Messages:
    654
    Location:
    Salem, Oregon, USA
    The 1600 hundred to a 2275 is all bore and stroke. Yes you had better wander down to the bank with a BIG sack. I think for everyday the 1835 is also the best bang for the buck.
    I just happen to be a power hungry mongrel that has a need for speed and getting it quick. Kind of an oxymoron when I will be driving a Kombi!!! It is all for the fun of it and the Kombi will not be my everyday driver just my fun car.
     
  12. Two Yanks

    Two Yanks New Member

    Messages:
    654
    Location:
    Salem, Oregon, USA
    The 1600 hundred to a 2275 is all bore and stroke. Yes you had better wander down to the bank with a BIG sack. I think for everyday the 1835 is also the best bang for the buck.
    I just happen to be a power hungry mongrel that has a need for speed and getting it quick. Kind of an oxymoron when I will be driving a Kombi!!! It is all for the fun of it and the Kombi will not be my everyday driver, just my fun car.
     
  13. urbexdweller

    urbexdweller Member

    Messages:
    945
    Location:
    Adelaide
  14. gazman

    gazman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,899
    Location:
    Perth WA
    If you want to see a Commo V6 powered bus check out my 'V6 lowlight' link below....
    We had a Eureka (kitcar) on a 69 beetle chassis with a HOT 2275 in it, had no trouble lifting the front wheels off the ground on takeoff :D ....
     
  15. KahunaKombi

    KahunaKombi Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,220
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Qld
    Don't let him hear you say that Ray :lol: He's got a worked 2 Litre Kombi Engine in his and it goes hard :p
     
  16. kombiwhisperer

    kombiwhisperer Member

    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    fraser coast queensland
    geoffs auto studio does "real" engines, have got type 1's doing 110km'hr at half throttle, 15 lt/100km, smooth idle ----------sounds good 'eh, it's all about applying some modern tech' to the trusty old kombi engines.
     
  17. Depending on what model Kombi you have will determine whether or not a Type 4 will be an option. If you are just after a lil more power then my suggestion would be give the 1600 a tickle in the right places. Depending on how much you want to spend the following would get your bus moving along very nicely indeed...

    dual 40mm webers
    cam change
    044 heads
    decent exhaust system
    piston and barells to take it to 1776cc.(1835cc engine combo's aren't as reliable)

    Built properly you should be able to cruise on 100km/hr no probs at all. I'd also look at getting a 2L box to replace the low geared 1600 box. Will cruise much better with less RPM.

    RAY - wash your mouth out LOL. Type 4 torque all the way round here!!

    Kombiwhisperer I have a 2L type that will do 110km/hr at almost 1/8 throttle. Half throttle will get me booked for speeding in a big way with a total loss of license LOL

    Full throttle will see me behind bars... jail bars hehehehehe

    Would make an interesting new headline.....

    "Kombi driver exceeds speed limit and ends up in jail"
     
  18. KahunaKombi

    KahunaKombi Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,220
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Qld
    Bit slow getting to this Brennden - ok so it's not in your Tech Area :)
     
  19. Nigel

    Nigel Member

    Messages:
    628
    Location:
    Canvey Island, Essex, UK
    Modified VW "1600" Type 1 or VW 17/18/2000 TYPE 4 engine!?!

    An engine displacement of 1835 cm³, corresponds to using 92•0 mm diameter, large-bore cylinder barrels & piston, in conjunction with the factory-stock stroke of 69•0 mm. As a general observation, when inceasing overall displacement, increasing the stroke in preference to the bore, tends to favour an increase in low-to-medium speed torque, rather than high-speed power, which is more appropriate to the heavy, unaerodynamic VW Kombi. In his book's appendix, dealing with VW Type 1, 2 & 3 air-cooled engines, Graham Bell presents a table of possible bore & stroke increases for these engines, but qualifies it with the following statement:

    A. Graham Bell, "Performance Tuning in Theory & Practice - Four Strokes", Haynes Publishing Group, 1981, ISBN 0-85429-275-6

    « Note: the 88 x 76 or 90•5 x 74 combination is the most reliable for road or rally use. The crankcase must be machined to accept 90•5 or 92 mm barrels. This weakens the case and can cause cracking behind No. 3 cylinder unless the case is carefully welded for additional strength. Engines using 78 or 82 mm cranks will require clearance machining of the piston skirts and crankcase; and the camshaft thrust shoulder must be re-radiused to clear the No. 4 con-rod. For racing, Porsche rods should be used with 78 and 82 mm stroker cranks. Special cranks are available to suit these rods. »

    By a strange coincidence, it seems that substituting a five-bolt-fixing flywheel and 76•0 mm stroke crankshaft & connecting rods, from a defunct 1985~92 VW 2100 Type 25, water-cooled, flat-four engine (reputed to be expensive to overhaul; especially if owners have unwisely used an inappropriate antifreeze, corrosion inhibitor & water formulation), in combination with after-market, 88•0 mm bore cylinder barrels & pistons, to give a relatively modest 16•7% increase, from 1584 cm³ to 1849 cm³ displacement, might provide the most durable & reliable solution, whilst minimising the need to radically modify the engine's crankcase, internal components and cylinder heads. This is 14 cm³ more than the 1835 cm³ option (69•0 mm stroke x 92•0 mm bore) and has the advantage of increased stroke, in combination with a modest incease in bore.

    One could also upgrade the cooling system, by substituting the 7-row, VW Type 4 oil cooler & extending the oil-cooler "doghouse", of the later cooling-fan shroud, in place of the factory-stock, two-piece, offset, 5-row, VW Type 1 oil cooler; retaining the original oil-cooler to crankcase mounting adapter, but with longer M6 screw-studding. I believe this upgrade, has been documented by Lance Plahn in Australia, and by other authors in various VW magazines and Internet websites, of which the following three-part article, is but one example:

    http://www.aircooledvwaddiction.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=66

    http://www.aircooledvwaddiction.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=68

    http://www.aircooledvwaddiction.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=69

    It would also be wise to modify the lubrication system, to incorporate a full-flow oil filter, or alternatively use a 1980~83 VW 1600 Type 25 crankcase, which already incorporates an oil-filter mount.

    [​IMG]

    This picture of a 1983~92 VW 19/2100 Type 25 (i.e. T3 or Vanagon), water-cooled, flat-four engine crankshaft & flywheel in a VW Type 1 & Type 3 style or 1980~83 VW 1600 Type 25 (i.e. T3 or Vanagon) air-cooled engine, was originally presented, as part of an introduction as follows, to the services of Laurie Pettitt, proprietor of The Bug Factory (aka Laurie Pettitt Engines), in Ayton, Berwickshire, Great Britain, who routinely undertakes such conversions.

    "Crank it up!", Products, VW Motoring, October 1998, page 80.

    One passing acquaintance of mine, by the name of John R. Long, in Burton Pidsea, near Kingston-upon-Hull, Humberside, England, had such a modified, 1776 or 1835 cm³, VW Type 1 style engine, built by Laurie Pettitt, for his 1971~79 VW 1600 Type 2, using the water-cooled VW Type 25 engine components, plus large-valve cylinder heads and mild cam, etc.

    I have also found a reference as follows, to a VW 1303S Type 1 engine crankcase, of 1776 cm³ capacity, being built by Laurie Pettitt, using the VW Type 25 (i.e. T3 or Vanagon) water-cooled engine flywheel, crankshaft & connecting rods, for transplantation into a split-screen, 1965 VW Type 2.

    Alex Templeton, "Time For More Torque", Volkswagen Camper & Commercial, Issue 6, Spring 2002, pages 26~27.

    If you have a 1972~79 VW 1600 Type 2, then substituting a VW 17/18/2000 Type 4 style engine, is relatively straight forward, provided one obtains a complete engine, including the matching cooling-fan shroud, all of the tinware, all of the ancillary equipment and ideally the complete exhaust if it is still in reasonable condition. One would need to trim back the air-filter support platform, unless you intended to use Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection, instead of twin crburettors.

    There are also issues with supporting the shorter, VW 1600 Type 2 transaxle's input shaft and clearance of the VW 2000 Type 4 engine's, larger diameter clutch plate and revised flywheel, which would need to be resolved; possibly by also substituting the matching transaxle & starter motor.

    I do not know what new-part prices are like in Australia, but I reckon one could easily spend at least twice as much on a complete new exhaust system, including a pair of genuine VAG heat exchangers (if still available!?!), as one spent on a complete, second-hand, VW Type 4 style engine and as others have mentioned, other components are also vastly more expensive than for VW 1600 Type 1 style engines.

    It is certainly possible to transplant a VW Type 4 style engine, into a 1968~71 VW 1600 Type 2, as done by the celebrated Arthur Barraclough, but it involves significantly more modification work, especially to the engine tinware and the engine-compartment perimeter.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=342707

    Refer to the following thread, for more information about Arthur Barraclough's campervan:

    http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1808610&highlight=#1808610

    When substituting an engine with significantly greater torque & power, it is also desirable to change the overall gearing, by a combination of reduced overall gear ratios (i.e. gear ratios x final-drive ratio) and/or increased external tyre-diameter; the latter of which is restricted by Australian state laws or at least requires approval by an official assessor. If correctly chosen, this will give more relaxed cruising at high speed and should improve fuel economy, provided one does not radically change one's driving style.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  20. VolksBartz

    VolksBartz Member

    Messages:
    145
    Location:
    Newcastle/Sydney
    Just my 2c worth and I really have no idea but have talked to a number of mechanics.
    The guy at indian auto has a v8 kombi ute, he's had it for 20 years and says unless you're into hotrods and continually working on the engine steer clear. He also says that all water cooled conversions on bays and earlier are problematic.

    Gary at vw classic in kirrawee does change over 2l motors for around 4 grand and you'd want a 2L box too for another 2 grand. I drove one of his vans and it was the best i've driven (it was a 2.2 big bore though)

    I'm getting my 2L rebuilt and thinking about webers which add another couple of grand..ouch!!!!

    In searching for my kombi I drove quite a few, no 1600's actually. Most performed well with not a lot between 1800 and 2L. From memory one 1800 held on a sizeable little hill on 90. My girl was good on 100 before I blew her to bits on the way home from buying her.

    I do think the KISS principle is best, usually the creators get it right or close to right so sticking with what has been designed for the space should work well!
     

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