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It's goodbye "Elle" and hello HAL!

Discussion in 'Performance' started by AC-T3, Feb 26, 2015.

  1. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Location:
    Woy Woy
    At last it is done, dynoed and my AC-T3 is back on the road after being re-birthed at CBBVW Penrith. All of the 1960's era engine management systems (L-jet ECU and EFI along with the Bosch distributor and coil ignition system) are all gone replaced by a Haltech Sprint 500 ECU running full sequential injection that is lit up with a coil over plug ignitor ignition system. All this rides on a stock Type 4 motor (well OK it does run 8.5:1 compression, has a mild cam with increased lift and duration and has been blue-printed and balanced) that now delivers over 100 hp at the flywheel and puts some 76 hp down at the wheels, plus has buckets of torque to boot. Mike has worked a miracle and the bus is now a joy to drive and while not a race car it has enough power and torque to keep up with the MV 2.1 water coolers.

    This is the way it was when running vapour fed dual fuel LPG - just count the number of volumetric efficiency limiting devices on that air intake trunk!
    Old Engine.jpg

    and this is how it looks now
    New Engine (i).jpg

    and this is the problematic rubber air intake boot replacement

    New Engine (ii).jpg

    Now to put some miles on it - time will tell if I decide whether to go turbo or keep things as they are now. So far it is returning just under 11 l/100 city/freeway and I expect these figures to come down even further once I get to know things better. I'm happy as and I'm in love with my car!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  2. Luckyphil

    Luckyphil Well-Known Member

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    7,016
    Location:
    Gosford
    Will the bus be at The Bus Stop for us to check out?
     
  3. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,474
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    :D much prettier.

    I assume that the engine internals were done previously?
    what were your previous fuel economy figures on each fuel?
    I run pod as well but no AFM on LPG as it appeared to lean out mix at low and high revs when running LPG. Did you have any similar issues?
    same year and slight mods as well
    was your gas mixer a ring between AFM and air filter?

    bet you LOVE the torque and smooth running

    col
     
  4. Wattie

    Wattie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,276
    Location:
    Mildura. Victoria. Australia.
    Beautifully presented, nothing better that a nice neat engine layout, great work. :cool:
     
    Tooli Glenn likes this.
  5. KahunaKombi

    KahunaKombi Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,220
    Location:
    Bracken Ridge, Qld
    Great to see a nice tidy clean engine :D
     
  6. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Location:
    Woy Woy
    Thanks for the kind words - but Mike Kristen is the genius here.

    Phil, not sure if I will make Sawtell. I am overdue for a trip back to my homeland on the far north coast and if the planets align then I will drop in.

    Col, so many questions so here goes:
    1. The engine is a new build from CBBVW and the box and dice came into being after getting only 25k from the last rebuild by a reputable VW technician (buggered valve seats on #1 and burnt rings on #3). Not happy at all with that Jan. Now before anyone starts to criticise LPG I got well over 150,00 high speed freeway kms on the original motor which was a backyard rebuild of unknown heritage. Savings in fuel costs have amounted to some 2 1/2 long block rebuilds. Now I am happy with that.
    2. Fuel economy depended on how it was tuned - and driven! Tuned to petrol at 7.5 degrees returned around 13-14 l/100 on petrol and 16/18 on gas. But when tuned to LPG at 11 degrees (or 14 for the brave) it returned around 16/18 on petrol and 13/14 on gas. So I dynoed it to 3200 rpm (95 kph) at 11 degrees on gas, and only used petrol to start and warm the oil before switching to gas some 3 or 4 km down the road. The dyno showed 31 rwhp on gas at 7.5 degrees and a whopping 36 rwhp at 14 degrees at 3200.
    3. Yes. I found vapour LPG to be a compromise with lean running either side of the setting optimised via dyno. I also found vapour to be quite susceptible to seasonal conditions down here, and just like to old multi carb sports cars that needed a tune from summer - winter and again coming out of winter into summer. I found vapour susceptible to seasonal changes in temperature and air pressure - nothing a wee fiddle with the little screw couldn't fix.
    4. Yep, the mixer is the rectangular thing between the AFM and air cleaner. It's no more than a 5/8" tube flattened on the end so the vapour mixes and turbulates as it moves down the intake - no fancy donut with tiny jets. The auxiliary air regulator was tapped into the top of the AFM and a blow back valve fitted down stream from the AFM. All very tight but it worked.

    And yes, the extra power and torque of the new setup is fun and is probably accounting for some extra fuel consumption at the moment. Driving is a delight, overtaking "slow" traffic down the freeway is now so easy but keeping it all legal is not so easy. RSI of the right foot is a real possibility as I struggle to stay out of trouble.

    Here is the basic parts list used by CBBVW:

    1 x Haltech Sprint 500 ECU
    1 x Haltech Wide Band CAN kit
    1 x CBBVW custom crank cam angle sensor
    1 x Reco throttle body with Bosch throttle position switch fitted
    4 x LS1 ignition coils with ignitor built in and plug kit (semi or full sequential costs about the same!!!!)
    1 x Haltech harness cut to fit application
     
  7. saabman

    saabman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    Location:
    Goulburn
    Looks like a nice setup.

    Have you got dyno figures for the new setup?
     
  8. nils

    nils Well-Known Member

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    1,515
    Location:
    newcastle
    now that's an aircooled motor to be proud of. Top marks to Mike.

    my brother. Still talks of rebuilding the old 82, but has no idea which way to head with the engine. This looks like a great way to keep the VW heart and added some modern tech
     
  9. oldman

    oldman Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,611
    Location:
    Avalon Beach NSW
    Mike is, "The Man "!!
    He's the go-to bloke when other "experts" stuff things up....
    Mike has all sorts of tricks lurking for re-builds......he really is an innovator.
    Haltech themselves, give him credit in their own write up of their products...now that's recognition imo.

    Glad to hear of your success. very nice power plant indeed.
    One day.......

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  10. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Location:
    Woy Woy
    Saabman, no I don't have a copy of the dyno printout to show the progress of torque and power over the rev range. Time was short when I collected the bus - it was late and Mike had just returned from an all expenses paid 3 day trip to Brisbane to sort out/dyno a bunch of Brissy volksies so I didn't want to push. I will get it - eventually, but Mike assures it delivers well over 100 at the flywheel and over 76 at the rear wheels. After driving it I do tend to believe him - I remember how a new '76 EFI bus went way back in '76 - it really is a case of cheese and chalk.

    Nils, ta. Mike has just continued on from where VW left things in 1982 and his passion is breathing new life into a proven design. After all, the air cooled VW in it's various forms took the Third Reich on the most arduous road trip in history across Western and Eastern Europe - from the frozen Tundra to the burning deserts of North Africa and back home again - to be resurrected by the British in post war Germany as the splitty beetle then the splitty bus. The air cooled VW still rules.

    Mark, yes Mike is the go to man and he will share his knowledge with water cooled and non VW types as well, including Lamborghini and more recently a turbo Imprezza where the owner was non to Imprezzed with 15 l/100. So out with the Subaru ECU and in with Haltech, increase boost to 14 psi add an extra 140 kW at the rear wheels all on 10 l/100km. As LuckyPhil has pointed out, GoWesty are looking to future proof the MV 2.1 against the inevitable failure of the Digifant system - but why look to the US when the solution is already available here in Australia. Mike is at the forefront and Haltech listen when he suggests improvements to the ECU firmware to increase performance and functionality.

    I just gotta say again that I am in love with my van. I started with a 5 point plan to build an AC-T3 that could be driven hard all day every day, be economical simple reliable and trustworthy and scoff at those kombi killer hills. Mike has delivered on the first bits. The remaining 3 stages in my 5 point plan are to add a large capacity external oil cooler, twin turbos at 8 psi (had researched and have discounted a SC14 supercharger) and fit LPG liquid injection. Then I will be done.
     
  11. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

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    10,243
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    For what reason the LPG?
     
  12. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Location:
    Woy Woy
    Found LPG to be a smooth slow burning high octane low emission fuel. The old oil heated vapour fed system cooled the oil by 4 degrees C and worked so well that it has left me with a soft spot for gas. From what I read, a shot of liquid super cold LPG into the intake port SHOULD help manage head temperatures and act as a de-facto intercooler as well as the other benefits mentioned previously. I would appreciate any experiences people have with LPG injection, including direct injection which I believe is a huge hit with diesel drivers. Injection sits at number 5 on my build plan and it just might get activated if the Mad Max prophecy comes to pass where we are forced into petty crime to pay for petrol.
     
  13. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,474
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Had done a lengthy reply to you reply #6 but seems it disappeared , prob due to my crap telstra connection.

    So again, thanks for the feedback . Adds well to what I have played with on my LPG on the 83 and 79.
    dissy graph is very important to LPG and they like initial and low/mid advance with a lower than petrol top end advance . all due to the burning characteristic of LPG.

    Similar experience re LPG being sensitive to dirty filters. temps .timing etc on a variety of cars

    Need to do a proper plot on dyno but I run mine consertively due to not yet doing the dissy properly and accept 16l/100km as standard for all conditions.
    Have had mid 13 l/ 100 and consider 14-15 as likely safe achieveable with graphed dissy and no AFM for HWY@ 90-95 km/hr for both vehicles.[ checked temps and plugs at the 13-15 running and all good]

    petrol around 12.5 l/100km on the t3. mixed and/or 100km/hr HWY.
    N/A on bay.

    both engines mild cam and ceramic coatings on pistons etc ? .otherwise pretty stock

    Different characteristics tho [different cams] t3 needs to rev whereas bay is torque ??

    re injected LPG
    just as a cooling charge or dual fuel ?
     
  14. syncro

    syncro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,243
    Location:
    Southern Highlands
    LPG just seems a waste of time to me.
    Less power.
    More engine wear.
    More costs.
    A pain every year for rego checks.
    I really cannot see any benefit at all.
     
  15. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,474
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Ask luckyphil if it has less power :)

    In qld = no checks other when selling
    cant comment on engine wear in kombi but ford valves did 300k/km after fitting LPG which was better than the original factory attempt that were hammered thin at 150k/km on petrol. yes it was a common fault from factory.

    obviously a controlled test or accumulation of histories is only way to give some idea.
    around 130k and 150k on kombi engines ??. no obvious issues but haven't pulled heads to check
    adjustments to hydraulic lifters have been minimal

    from experience, finding a half reliable tuner is a big issue and as usual its necessary to learn how to sort them ones self . even tho that is usualy illegal.
    would suggest most ownership issues come from crap mechanics and tuning

    my ratio of cost of fuel is 1.88 at mo . which is about average
    ratio of consumption tuned for marginal difference in power. 1.28
    generaly I would say I have an actual saving of 30%minimum

    agree that they can be problematic unless installed and tuned correctly.
    at full cost of install of $2500 or more I wouldn't bother as payback too long and differential in price[fuel] unsure.
    expect an engine built for dedicated LPG would recoup some of the losses expected from the lower energy value of LPG compared to petrol.
     
  16. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Location:
    Woy Woy
    Yes cbus, you are absolutely right on all points. The bad rap on LPG can largely be put down to drop kick LPG technicians who couldn't give a shyte about anything other than taking ones cash and from second hand stories being promoted by non believers. A crap setup means crap performance and a dead donk before its time. Just ask any honourable ex-LPG technician who left the industry because of what they saw and what they were expected to do by their employer. Then go talk to a LPG professional who went to the expense of installing a dyno so he could set up systems properly to suit each application, and to prove that industry standards were what was and is killing motors. Gas is a slow burner and to ensure it is all burnt before exhaling means mixtures are critical. According to some, standard setups are far too rich and pump burning fuel out the exhaust, burning valves, seats and guide seals in the process. New new era liquid injection systems have the potential to remove all the problems associated with the old vapour suck or vapour injection systems AND deliver more power from its 112 - 120 octane with lower emissions. Well, thats my view and it is not going to change. Oh, my old dual fuel motor died because I phukked up, I failed to check oil, it ran low, #3 tore a chunk out of the skirt. Still drove for another 4 months until time allowed for a rebuild. On strip down the heads were in top order - no valve seat recession, no nothing. I put 150k of LPG on that motor which came with the van and was reputedly rebuilt some 10 years earlier - total miles not known.

    My next step: think some more, do some more research, talk to my techo's, ponder and wait. But liquid injection is it. To go dedicated LPG or dual fuel will be the question - once again there is no off the shelf product for an air cooled VW so once again I will be on my own. Dedicated LPG will be simple - reprogram the ECU with LPG parameters. Duel fuel injection provides the challenge of loading 2 engine profiles to match to 2 fuels. The Sprint 500 only takes 1 but a new profile can be uploaded by computer, whereas the Platinum Series runs a number of selectable profiles. MMMMMMMMM, much to think about.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
  17. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Location:
    Woy Woy
    Thought it was time for an update:

    Just got back from Penrith after dropping the volksie off to have new firmware loaded into the ECU, and spending 2 1/2 hours or so just grazing and sorting stuff with Mike and going through some of his works in progress like an L Bug with 2.5 twin cam Subi, Haltech and a bunch of other goodies. The car looks crap on the outside but the 9 inch Pirelli's are the only hint that all is not normal. Over 400 RWHP and detuned so it can be driven on the road! If I had taken a cut lunch it would have been one of the best picnics ever!

    Just to recap, my motor is built to the same OEM spec (more or less) what VW originally designed for the Type 4 sedan, cam, compression and balancing is all that sets it apart from any air cooled T3 - total build price is Mikes stock Type 4 price - $3,800. There are no fancy go fast parts, no ceramics, no head work, no stroking, no extractors, no nothing - just a bog ordinary 1970cc with all the metal where it was laid down in the hope it will help the motor last longer. But, and there is always a but, its the ECU, coil over plug ignition and full sequential injection that makes the real difference. While talking gear ratios, revs, driving styles, economy, performance, reliability and longevity Mike put it on the dyno to demonstrate. It's pulling 3300 at 100 and 3650 at 110kph so those little high speed outbursts that happen now and then are a bit OK but should not be the norm - hence the discussion on ratios, gear boxes, LSD's, etc. Now that the motor is run in the damned thing pulled 81.6 RWHP at 4,400 (thats about 120bhp in the old language), the graph stopped at 5600, and rear wheel traction (Mikes replacement measure for torque) was damn near linear/horizontal from around 2200 to 4400 at around 550 ft/lbs. Now I promised myself I would have a leisurely drive over to see Mike to double check economy - but that promise lasted until I turned the first corner from home. Crossed the Hawkesbury River at 110 and by the time we crested the top of the last rise at Cowan had to back off from 120kph. Thats accelerating up hill with around 1/4 throttle or so and the trip turned in 12 l/100 but what a trip! Thats why I figure I don't need turbo, turbo will add another maintenance issue but would deliver economy with performance (down toward 10+ l/100 and add another bagful of hp). But why? I'm happy with how things are now - perhaps gear box and ratios is where I'll head next. A 5 speed with reworked ratios to retain boat ramp pulling power in first and long legs with 5th. But then, perhaps not - just drive what I've got in the manner that is best suited to what I've got. That'll save cash too! And that's why my mantra is keep it light and keep it lean. No excess baggage, no cabinets, no heavy PVA panels, or what ever.

    And yes, I am in love with my volksie,
     
    Marlyn likes this.
  18. Kai

    Kai Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,792
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    saw this in person last night and looks beautiful, considering it for my engine when i hit the jackpot!

    And yes, that beetle with a suby engine is an interesting concept. Fly-by-wire no less! It will be making a public appearance very shortly.
     

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