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Needing some Uncommon Distrubuter advice.

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by 68BUS, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,521
    Location:
    Brisbane
    There is currently no Vac Advance to the dizzy. I will have to take some close up photos tonight to see if there is a plugged provision for vac advance already.
    Otherwise having a read up on it, the vac advance can be installed onto most Kadrons, but based on the Kaddie Shack website it is a fairly technical procedure as it not only involves drilling and installing a barb to the outside of the carb, but also plugging up some of the smaller holes internally to suit. Something that would be pretty easy to stuff up.

    These are the pictures of the carbs that I have available to me right now. Not much good to me but someone on here may recognize the Vac ports?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

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    Email Blow back and see if there is a non vacuum version available
     
  3. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    I have done so.
    I also emailed a member on here that did the Kadron conversion in 2015 in Brisbane. He has not been on the site since 2017 so hopefully the email pings him.
     
  4. gazman

    gazman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,826
    Location:
    Perth WA
    That sounds like a much better setup. Does it require a ported vacuum signal or just manifold vacuum?
     
  5. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    Asked the question to Mike about the Vac Advance and got the following responce.
    Having never driven the same motor with a 009 dizzy with a flat spot and a vac advance dizzy, does anyone on here know how much difference the vac advance might make in day to day living terms? Because at $750 for the kit, the machining the vac advance into my carbs will be on top of that cost.

    Mikes response;
    No it is not 100% necessary. The ignition advance is MAP based and uses both RPM and Vac/Boost. If you do not connect the vac, you will only have RPM based advance, which is similar to a 009 and probably similar to what you already have.
    However, it is very much worth the effort to fit the vac port, as this will give you ignition advance under partial throttle conditions, which is where you do 99% of you driving.
    Basically the reason for needing ignition advance is that fuel burns at a fixed rate, so the faster your engine spins, the sooner you need to ignite it so that the peak cylinder pressure happens at the optimum rod angle (max power).
    Cylinder pressure will also affect the burn rate. The higher the pressure, the faster the burn rate. So in the case of partial throttle you have low cylinder pressure due to a reduced air fuel mixture. This has a slower burn rate so you need to ignite it much earlier.
    With an RPM only system you have no way of detecting partial throttle conditions, so cannot ignite the charge early enough. The engine becomes inefficient and you will lose power and reduce fuel efficiency.
    With a VAC and RPM based system, at partial throttle conditions you get the additional ignition advance required. It will free up power and you will use less fuel. The engine will feel peppier.
    My opinion is that RPM only based ignition systems are good for fixed RPM applications - eg racing applications and industrial engines, which is where you will fine the 009 most commonly used, however for a road car a vac advance is a must.
     
    Mordred and oldman like this.
  6. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

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    4,521
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    Oh, and I asked Stan about the ignition system I am considering.
    He did not respond but did tell me that the info he gave me about the coils and module are wrong and those ones are obsolete. And gave me new product codes and that they are only through Bursons and not Repco like he previously advised.
    He would have to be one of the hardest people to deal with that I know...

    At least I have replacement options again (Assuming the latest batch of info is correct).
     
  7. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,837
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    sunshine coast
    The van will be smoother with vac and better low torque, part throttle response and economy on cruise part throttle.

    The original 009 curve is crap so his will be better anyway.
    Just not getting best potential realised without vac.

    The fix for 009 was run rich but 2-3 deg extra advance was better as that was what was missing ( actualy potentially 11 ish on very light throttle n load.)

    Drilling a ported vac takeoff isn't hard usualy.
    Depends on what casting or crap is at the point you need.
    Only need one carb done
     
    68BUS likes this.
  8. gazman

    gazman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,826
    Location:
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    So to clarify, the new setup you are looking at is distributor-less and uses a crank angle sensor and map sensor instead (forget the '009-like advance curves' etc, thats just adding more confusion!).

    Every map (Manifold Air Pressure) sensor I've seen runs off standard manifold vacuum, not ported. This means you can drill and tap some barbs in the manifolds, not the carbys - or T off the brake booster line if you have one fitted? Easy to do, fit a barb on each manifold just beneath carbs, fit a vac hose from one side to the other with a T piece in the middle, connect to map sensor...
     
  9. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a very cheap option. Are you happy with existing customer daily driver feedback?
     
  10. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

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    Still in limbo. I contacted Stan again to see if I could get info on his spark curve. More negative non helpful feedback.
    Not being an engine builder - is his following advice about the thrust shims dropping into the bottom end correct?
    Or is he just acting out because I am wanting to use modern technology on one of his motors?

    If you think you have problems now , change to that and you will be stuck

    Well and truly if anything goes wrong as you can't get the dissy drive back out

    After tthe engine is assembled. And if you do manage that there are 2 thrust shims at the bottom

    That are more than likely to drop into the bottom end.

    Dangerous!!!

    Duplicating German 009 curve

    Stan via Ruth
     
  11. Mordred

    Mordred Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I would have said if it is such an issue fit a stripped down dizzy with out points in the drive hole and that should keep everything in place. Look a bit odd but it will keep the drive and thrust washers in place.

    Just going back a bit:


    That is the best explanation I have seen about 009 dizzys and why they aren't suitable. Heard all the stories and snippets of information, but this is really the first time I have seen a comprehensive paragraph that give a clear and concise reason why you shouldn't use them.

    Adrian.
     
  12. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

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    I have to say, so far I have been totally impressed by Mike's helpfulness and knowledge. Appears to me that he is on the ball with what he does.
    The only hesitation I have is the engine builder who it so totally opposed to this. BUT, he has also proven himself to be rather unhelpful and totally dismissive of the overheating issues I had (And proved I had).

    Mikes paragraph is also supported by a few sources that make logical sense that I have found such as this good breakdown of all the Dizzy options available on the market as of mid last year.
    https://www.aircooled.net/vw-distributor-options/

    Also, great idea of the stripped out dizzy. I suppose that is the dizzy shaft is still spinning against the cam (I assume the cam is what has the opposing gear to drive it) and it have no rotor button and no leads / coils connected to it then it would not be able to produce any electricity (Including static electricity).
    Or if it did build up static electricity, would the shaft just earth itself to the dizzy clamp?

    I personally don't mind having a fake dizzy looking odd. I just want to have a reliable bus that keeps me and the family traveling. (Oh, and a bit of extra power of course. Otherwise I could throw the 1776 back - still running a 009, but single spark).
     
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  13. oldman

    oldman Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Mike has a lot of work generated by disgruntled folk and their sub-standard builds from other "experts".....
    He also tunes/builds race systems for other "experts" :rolleyes:....now THAT would be embarrassing if their customers found out ......!
    Cheers,
    Mark
     
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  14. AC-T3

    AC-T3 Well-Known Member

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    Just to add to the confusion or alternatively help decide on an electronic option, here's some thoughts from Haltech. Not pushing any businesses, brands etc, just some hopefully helpful info. My Type 4 runs 4 coils with inbuilt igniters on full sequential injection where the distributor has been replaced by a custom crank cam angle sensor. So running a gutted distributor on your motor should not be a problem.

     
  15. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Rob,
    The video was interesting. And for me is helped me think that there are certainly better options. But with limited experience and given I am only taking my options for a VW field of suppliers the Coil near spark plugs and the separate ECU that the Joe Blow kit offers are a good option.
    Further to that, he came back to me today and said that pulling the dizzy shaft out is pretty easy and generally the washers come out with it or can be gotten out with a magnet.
    Alternatively he confirmed that the dizzy shaft can also stay in place.

    He has also done research into the Pintara dizzy to see if he can find a spark curve as Stan won't give me the info. And during the process he came up with a different part number for the dizzy module if I wanted to give it a try to save some money.
    I am really impressed with the guy so far.

    And I am seriously leaning towards the Electronic Ignition. And based on the detailed he has provided the process seems to be something that I will be able to figure out.
    Going to have a chat with Anita about costs as it is close to another $1k I have put into the motor. But hopefully it will give me better reliability and after sale support then I have now.

    In regards the tapping of vacuum line and manifold temp sensors.
    Would it be fair to assume that I could remove the manifold, drill and tap the hole, and then use a JB Weld or similar applied product to lock it into place? Or would this need to be properly welded by someone who can weld the cast material?
     
  16. gazman

    gazman Well-Known Member

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    1,826
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    If you tap a decent thread in the manifold and use a brass barbed tail fitting for the vacuum lines a bit of teflon tape on the threads should be all you need.
     
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  17. 68BUS

    68BUS Well-Known Member

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    4,521
    Location:
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    Thanks mate.
    This is all starting to should like something I can do in my shed with the tools at my disposal. Which is nice. I worried that getting a professional to tap the vac port into the Kadrons would see another $500 for the service.
     
  18. David H

    David H Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Builders with the right tools can do anything:). Go the vac advance:cool:.
    Cheers
     

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