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Points and Condensers Failing

Discussion in 'Engine & Transmission' started by Mr Beckstar, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    847
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    By the way
    in tne secondary pattern above read points open where it says "control module stops coil primary current"
    and where it says "control module allows current to flow" read points closed
    I'm guessing I didn't need to post that.
     
    Mr Beckstar likes this.
  2. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    Yes, noticed that Rick.

    Anyway, bizarre situation with Harry’s points/condenser. He’s been running fine again the last couple of days. New points and second hand condenser. I wonder how long they’ll last. I’ll double check the coil as to whether it’s the ballast type, but pretty sure it’s not as I researched that at the time.
     
  3. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    847
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    There's one more thing.
    put a volt meter on your alternator (not the battery)and drive your kombi like you stole it (hi rpm)
    If the voltage is excessive (over 15.5), that could cause premature points failure.

    funny that secondary pattern is of a points system not a transistor assisted ignition system
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  4. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    I haven’t seen over 13.91 V on the Bluetooth meter. I bought that at Supercheap Auto. Heres a pic of what I see on the phone albeit Harry is out in the car park right now so no BT connection

    9B77EDDD-9342-48CE-836D-8EA07A181D4B.png

    93D8D2A6-6DAF-47B9-AF78-0DC23DC98579.png
     
  5. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    847
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    stick the sensor wire on the alternator (just a bit up stream). Not saying it'll make much diff.

    If you've got burnt points there's only a few culprits. To much current flow (not enough resistance). to much voltage (over 15v) usually caused by the alternator. Cactus condenser (should be 19 to 22 uf 250 to 300v). Point contacts not made from tungsten (if you can file it down it's not tungsten). end of story.
     
    David H likes this.
  6. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    I still can’t work out what’s wrong with the points though. I’ve seen much worse points that work fine. And the resistance through them closed was max 0.2 ohms. Perhaps a poor joint that was only causing significant voltage drop with current flow and perhaps an associated hotspot after warm???? Frustrating when this sort of thing happens.
     
  7. rstucke

    rstucke Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    847
    Location:
    Wamberal NSW AUS
    Ok
    what about if not high enough voltage is getting to your coil (ign switch), lower voltage can cause higher current (12v 3a = 36w, 8v 4.5a =36w)
    Points and ignition switch start over heating.
    Long shot
     
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  8. David H

    David H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,400
    Location:
    newcastle
    Rick may be onto something here;). Hard to believe 2,k does decent points & condenser. Switch $20 or thereabouts & if not the problem you've got the spare you'll need sometime:p. I've a spare if you wish to borrow.

    & after this we'll go back to discussing Harry's heat problem;).
    Cheers
     
    Mr Beckstar likes this.
  9. Aspudis

    Aspudis Member

    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    Central Coast, NSW
    Is it possible that it could be a bad negative somewhere? Maybe the earth strap from the chassis to the gearbox?

    I had a problem recently where a bad earth was reducing the voltage to my coil and giving me a really weak spark. It made it almost impossible to start too. The earth strap from the battery to the chassis, and from the chassis to the gearbox both looked good but obviously needed a decent clean. It was super frustrating for a while.

    I know how frustrating it can be! :mad:o_O. Probably not your problem but doesn’t hurt to check and it’s an easy one. Clutching at straws Chris.
     
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  10. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    All good ideas for things to check, thanks guys.
     
    Mordred likes this.
  11. grumble

    grumble Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    982
    Location:
    Taree
    Another thought on this. Were the points opening or had they closed up due to lack of a spot of grease on the cam, did you check the dwell again when it wouldn't start? If this is all good is the coil a ballast resistor type (this will be shown on the coil base) if so these coils operate on a reduced voltage (usually 8-9 volts) and as stated before in this post another terminal on the coil supplies 12v from the ign switch for easy starting and this is then bypassed to allow the ballast resistor to do its job.
     
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  12. oldman

    oldman Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,340
    Location:
    Avalon Beach NSW
    Pardon ignorance.....but what about the regulator? Does that come into play here ?
    Cheers,
    Mark
     
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  13. Alpal

    Alpal Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,488
    Location:
    Melbourne Bend of Islands
    Or the wrong coil?
    Have a distant memory of chewing points until mechanic said coil was the wrong one. Changed coil and all was well.
     
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  14. Mordred

    Mordred Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,773
    Location:
    Penna, Hobart
    Hi guys,

    The Regulator indirectly plays a part but only to keep the voltage in the system at 13.8 ish volts, which we have ruled out.
    The coil problem I suspect would be the R type ones that use the ballast resistor and we have also ruled that out as well.

    Good ideas but as Chris says why don't the points that were in it work when there seems to be no obvious reason for them not to.

    A thought Chris, We didn't try checking the on/off reading with the faulty points in place on the dizzy and seeing if they are actually breaking the contact when they are opening. It is possible the points are shorted to the frame of the dizzy and not actually switching the current off at all.

    Adrian
     
  15. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    Yes, the points were opening. The dwell was set at about 44 degrees when I installed them new and it was 48 degrees when I was having these issues. It’s a new coil I bought from Vintage VW late last year. I think it was Beru brand. I did check everything was right when I opened the box and it seemed right.
     
  16. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    I’ll double check. Hopefully I can find the box.
     
  17. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    I just checked the resistance of the points we took out and they seem to work properly. Open circuit when points open. 0.3 Ohm or less when closed.

    Really weird though that it seems to fix the problem when they were changed when they seem to work fine.

    Perhaps the earth wire from the advance plate to the body is dodgy and when changing the points we’ve disturbed it and made it work again. But it looks fine. I don’t know; just fishing for an explanation.
     
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  18. David H

    David H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,400
    Location:
    newcastle
    When it's not obvious this thinking can make sense;). Seems consensus is earth or voltage & a bit random. Perhaps some mileage will show on the new points & give direction of failure???
    I'm sticking to the condenser stuff & why the excess is ending up there as to how to find the answer? Both points & condenser dealing with more than they have to:rolleyes:. Do a 100km & see what info the points give?
    Cheers
     
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  19. oldman

    oldman Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,340
    Location:
    Avalon Beach NSW
    Have seen the points wire break within it’s sheathing, leaving only a couple of strands in contact. Once the vehicle ran, resistance built up as a result of the lack of cross sectional area ( not enough copper ..).....the wires that were left couldn’t handle the load.
    Was very hard to find..... but solved the issue at the time by replacing with a (checked!) set of points.......
    Just another thought........there has to be a reason.
    Watching with interest
    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  20. Mr Beckstar

    Mr Beckstar Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    Bateau Bay, NSW
    100 km? Already drove from Eden to home with the new points; about 600 km! No hint of another problem so far.
     
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