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Starting Troubles

Discussion in 'Fuel System & Electrics' started by Basil Bus, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Basil Bus

    Basil Bus New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Hobart
    It's got electronic ignition and I set it for about 11 degrees BTDC. Any less than that and it ran dreadfully.
     
  2. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,709
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    What dissy. 009 orSVDA?
    What is max mechanical advance.

    Thinking a bit extra advance may be putting some strain on another weak point.

    Check output of alternator.
    May not be fully charging batteries.?

    Try a direct wire from spade connection on starter touched to post on battery as a test.
    Obviously out of gear ,handbrake on.
    Preferably someone in drivers seat.
    Ignition OFF, as only checking operation of starter.

    Other than that you may have a high resistance from battery to starter ( most commonly crudded earth strap that looks ok but has high resistance),
    low voltage to solenoid on starter, worn solenoid contacts, worn brushes.

    Sometimes a worm starter bush in bellhousing allows starter to pole.
     
  3. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,599
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    Seen this problem too many times.

    Changing the bush insitu is a pain and no one does it when the motor is out.

    Why I love bushless starters
     
  4. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,709
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Agree.
    Saves double guessing if it's the problem. :cool:
     
  5. Basil Bus

    Basil Bus New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Hobart
    Thanks all. Am working through things as time allows. There's a lot of information to digest.

    Another thing that occurred to me: about 3 months ago on a day-trip, as well as the starter getting "bogged down" initially, it also made a distinct grinding noise, like gears grinding. The starter then spun more freely, the noise stopped and the bus started. This happened on three occasions in succession, then stopped. I thought it was a sign that the problem would be easier to diagnose so took it to my mechanic. However all he was prepared to do was "listen to it" if I left it with him and since it had stopped making the noise I didn't bother. It hasn't done it again since. Does this help with diagnosis?

    Can anyone recommend an auto-electrician in Hobart who has Kombi sympathies? I trust the one I used but he has had such a frustrating time with my bus in the past that his heart sinks visibly every time he sees me.
     
  6. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,709
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Check the mounting bolts on starter are tight.
     
  7. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,599
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    mmmm.......makes me think more it is the bushing

    If that is worn or collapsed then it is missing the "engagement" with the flywheel and would "grind" when trying to start
     
  8. Basil Bus

    Basil Bus New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Hobart
    I asked the auto-electrician if he thought the troubles could stem from a worn bushing but he was pretty confident that they didn't. He's spent quite a bit of time working on my starting system and knows it well. The starter is bolted in solidly and I've made sure all the battery cables are well connected. I measured exactly the same voltage at the solenoid as at the battery and my meter measures 0 resistance for the cable. I've got 2 new earth cables and and a solenoid relay to overcome voltage losses to the ignition switch.
    I've made some progress: yesterday I discovered that though I always get a spark between the engine block and the lead to the coil, I don't always get a spark if I ground a spark plug. It doesn't spark intermittently, it either does or not at all, depending on when I choose to test it.
    Yesterday I risked ferrying a friend around Hobart and parked "strategically" 3 times - facing downhill. Although it started the first two times, the third time I had to bump start, and it started immediately at just walking pace. Again, once started it runs normally.
    Voltage at the positive terminal of the coil when starting is around 11.4V. Not sure if this is important but I've measured the voltage difference between the "+" and "-" terminals of the coil at about 5.5V (engine off).
    Have I got a problem with the dizzie? I've taken it out and had a look inside. I'm no expert but I can't see anything obviously wrong. There's no sign of moisture. It's fitted with a Compu-fire ignition system. Could this be causing the problem?
     
  9. Kai

    Kai Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    can you record a video and upload, might help diagnosing. I would guess battery or starter motor. If it is starter I would recommend new hi torque that is self supporting.
     
  10. Barry

    Barry Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,599
    Location:
    Abbotsford NSW
    That is healthy if you have 11.4v when kicking it over

    Across the coil means nothing as -ve terminal isn’t “earth” so it will never show 12v. After the -ve it goes through the points blah blah.
     
  11. Basil Bus

    Basil Bus New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Hobart
    What was it you wanted a video of?
     
  12. Kai

    Kai Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,716
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW
    the "bog down"
     
  13. Basil Bus

    Basil Bus New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Hobart
    I'm trying to get a good audio of the "bog down". Please bear with me.
     
    Mordred likes this.
  14. Basil Bus

    Basil Bus New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Hobart
    I've got a couple of WMV files from my camera, I could produce an MOV file using an iPhone but this forum doesn't seem to be able to host either of those. Is it possible to upload video files to the forum?
     
  15. Dredhead

    Dredhead Member

    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Gold Coast
    I also get the starter motor bog down grind if I hit the starter in bursts too close together. I read somewhere, I think on Samba, that if you wait 30 seconds(ish) or more you can overcome this. Not sure of the theory behind this but it works to negate the bog down issue. I've had my starter motor out and checked and auto electrician said it was fine, but haven't given my full attention to the overly long cranking time required to start from cold.
    (Every time I start research I get sidetracked to easier things lol)

    Mine seems to be fuel not priming or being retained in the rails (Injected)
     
  16. oldman

    oldman Super Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,466
    Location:
    Avalon Beach NSW
    Back to basics......undo , remove earth straps and check for condition.....replace if necessary. Expose clean metal to reconnect to, then seal over.
    I replaced the main earth strap shortly after I picked up my bus......the difference to starting was unbelievable.
    Cheers,
    Mark
     
    Dredhead likes this.
  17. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,709
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    As Mark said.
    You have high resistance in a connection or lead.
    As it heats up it gets worse.
    Hence the need to cool down or battery recover.

    Check your battery under load as well.
    It may be failing.
    Both issues will combine.
     
    Dredhead likes this.
  18. Dredhead

    Dredhead Member

    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Gold Coast
    Thanks for the explanation and tips guys. Much appreciated.
    Just got a new fuel pump and filter to put in as it had sat for a couple of years I thought the FP and filter might have gummed up.

    I checked the earth strap not so long ago, and new battery last year 660 CCA.
    I try start it every wkend to keep it lubed and moving and disconnect battery in between starting.
    But the long cranking time has always been there since day 1, 7 years (motor rebuilt in 09).

    Any how sorry to have hijacked this thread, I have a few more questions but will
    post under another thread down the track when I can give it my full attn.

    Thanks
    W
     
  19. cbus

    cbus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,709
    Location:
    sunshine coast
    Even a solid looking earth strap can have high resistance.
    Same for connections on the + to starter.
    Use a set of heavy jumper cables to double both cables as a check.
     
    David H and Dredhead like this.
  20. Basil Bus

    Basil Bus New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Hobart
    Thanks responding to my post, and I don't mind it being hijacked. I've been out of touch, in Alaska with only intermittent internet , since early June. Hence my lack of response. Thanks also to all others for your advice.

    I'm making some sort of progress. I seem to have had three problems, so I'm surprised I ever got the bus to start - the battery isolation switch didn't seem to isolate the starting battery all the time. I've replaced it. Despite my electrician's assurances that my starter was fine I took a punt and replaced it with a reconditioned one. No more struggling to turn the motor over! It turns over fine. Unfortunately, I still seem to have a problem starting at times due to a non-existent or very weak spark. Having thought the new starter had solved our problems, I couldn't get the bus started on the cold, damp day before we flew overseas.

    I had a friend keep the batteries charged and put them back in yesterday. The car fired up quite easily though it was a cold morning. Again, today it started Ok. I think I still have an issue under some conditions and I'm considering replacing the ignition switch, as advised by Mordred a while ago.
     
    Dredhead and melissa like this.

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